Amnesty International says laws against buying sex breach men's human rights

[DonkeySkin]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545003/Amnesty-calls-legal-prostitution-Charity-says-laws-ban-people-buying-selling-sex-breach-human-rights.html

The organisation is planning to adopt a position that calls for the full decriminalisation of the sex industry, including johns and pimps.

It is tabling a paper for its UK branch to vote on that says it is a human right for 'consenting adults' to purchase sexual consent from another person (regardless of the desperate circumstances that person may be in, presumably). The paper also devotes time to that latest favourite cover-all for sex-industry advocates, 'the rights of the disabled', as a reason to allow the continuing expansion of the global sex industry with no oversight or concern from governments.

Apparently the human rights of the (overwhelmingly) women and girls who are coerced, trafficked and enslaved inside the sex industry to satisfy the demand from men for paid sex are of no concern.

Oh, sorry - Amnesty does remember to devote a whole two words to this, conceding that prostitution takes place in an 'imperfect context'. That would presumably be the context of a worldwide patriarchy that devalues female human beings, denies them education, safety and fairly paid work, and tells men they have the right to use their bodies for sex regardless of their actual desires. Not to mention, systemic racism, colonialism and exploitative capitalism.

Good to know Amnesty is prepared to stand up for the most vulnerable people on earth - male sex buyers.

zeffa it's not really consensual if the consent is bought

BuffytheReasonableFeminist - My views are based on life experience, on liberalism and research.
tThe fact is that many women engaged in prostitution do not regard themselves as being exploited, (some have posted here), however this does not chime with your particular brand of Feminism so you dismiss them as being unrepresentative. Feminism is, as you know a broad church and you and the others who agree with your stance are not the only voices within the movement.

because that IS their sexuality? they like humiliating and disgusting, it's fun. Imo, the disproportionate violence inc murder is simply because some men find it sexually stimulating

JuliaScurr - So, using your logic when I perform my job I haven't really consented to work for my employeer because the consent is bought. That is rissible.

You lost the debate when you called us fascists zeffa. Feminists are not fascists- they just argue for the novel idea that women are human beings too, not sex objects.

One thing though, I would really like to hear your answer to the following question:

Why do you want to pay a woman to fuck when she doesn't want to fuck you?

Consent is not required for a job, zeffa. An employment contract is. Consent is required for sex though - consent should be all about want - a person wanting to have sex. You want to buy that consent - I don't agree that you can.

Sabrina - "One thing though, I would really like to hear your answer to the following question:

Why do you want to pay a woman to fuck when she doesn't want to fuck you?
"
The answer is I don't. I believe in consent.

It takes two to tango and when two consenting adults choose to dance, whether in return for cash or otherwise it is no concern of the state.

That attitude does seem to indicate that you feel it would be ok for poor people to sell their kidneys and lungs to others. Is that a fair summation of your position?

She doesn't want to fuck you, zeffa. Otherwise you wouldn't have to pay her.

Why do you want to fuck someone who doesn't want to fuck you?

zeffa you are aware of the importance of sexual consent in a legal context? It does not apply in that way to working for an employer, hence mutually enforceable contracts

if it was a job like 'car mechanic' you could enforce satisfactory completion of the work. Which in this case would be rape

The thought of having sex with someone who wouldn't have sex with me if I hadn't paid her to genuinely makes my skin crawl.

I'd just be thinking "What must you look like through her eyes?" so loudly that I seriously doubt I'd even be able to get a stiffie. If I'm going to have sex with a woman I'd want her to look at me with affection, lust and/or love, not as something to be endured. That's creepy.

Zeffa, how can you so completely turn off your sense of empathy sufficiently to be able to have sex with someone who wouldn't have sex with you if you hadn't bribed her?

HowardTJMoon - Sex work does not entail, when conducted respectfully, the risk of harm or death. I don't think that your analogy with selling a kidney is a good one. As an earlier poster said, sex work is better compared to a massage. I, personally don't like the idea of people selling body organs.

HowardTJMoon - No one is forcing you to pay a woman for sex and I admire your pois, with the greatest respect none of your business. You find the idea creepy. You are entitled to that view but many others do not share it. In any event finding something "creepy" is not a basis for policy making.

Thing is Howard, punters are not real men. They don't care what a prostitute thinks of them. They are not paying her to think or to feel or to show any normal human emotion. Because they don't think of her as an autonomous feeling human being. She's just a body to satisfy their totally unnecessary wants, which they like to define as "needs". She could be anyone. It doesn't matter. Because they don't have sufficient empathy to give a damn.

And Zeffa is a fellow traveller of these men as you can tell from the compassion and empathy shining out from his posts (not).

Donating a kidney or an eyeball does not entail, when conducted properly, a particularly significant risk of death. I suspect that there have been many more prostitutes killed in their line of "business" over the last 20 years than there have been kidney donors who have died on the operating table.

Yet for you it's ok for women to risk abuse, STDs (condoms are not 100% effective against STD transmission) and pregnancy (ditto) in exchange for money but it's not ok for someone to face the lower risks associated with selling a kidney.

Interesting double standard there. But there's been a lot of those in what you have written so I shouldn't be surprised that there's yet another one.

HowardTJMoon - apologies something went wrong in the posting process rendering my reply somewhat garbled to put it mildly!
I admire your position but no one is forcing you to pay for sex.
Your view that paying for sex is "creepy" is a subjective one and ought not to form the basis of policy making.
Ultimately what two consenting adults do in private is a matter between those parties, it is no one else's business.

Zeffa, how can you so completely turn off your sense of empathy to be able to have sex with someone who wouldn't have sex with you if you hadn't bribed her?

Howard, I am an optimist. I truly believe that your view is shared by the majority of men.

Most men simply are not turned on by having sex with someone who is only there because you've paid.

zeffa - policy-making on prostitution has nothing to do with finding it 'creepy' - it has everything to do with harm - harm to individuals and society. Prostitution causes harm to women - you simply refuse to see this. You hide behind a screen where you think you can buy consent, and you think that negates any harm inherent in prostitution. It doesn't.

Zeffa, do you think men respect the women they pay for sex, in the same way you respect your cleaner?

Because if you genuinely think that, your position makes more sense. Unfortunately I think you are wrong.

HowardTJMoon - "bribed" is an emotive word and I don't accept your use of it in this context. A sex worker is paid for their services, not bribed.
Without having seen a sex worker or read a great deal regarding how they operate (both from those who enjoy their work and those who don't) you would, I think not understand that many clients and sex workers do feel empathy one for another. There is affection (I don't mean romantic love but, very occasionally this does develop). Although cash is entailed it is, at its best more than a mere monetary exchange.

GarthsUncle - Yes many men do respect sex workers but (sadly) not all do. This is the same with cleaners, some customers offer them a cup of tea, give them gifts at Christmas etc while others regard them as little lower than the dirt they (the cleaner) cleans up. The latter position is ethically wrong as it denies the humanity of the cleaner in the same way that those who abuse sex workers (apart from the fact they are breaking the law) are, in addition committing an affront to human dignity.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones - Much of the harm in prostitution stems from it operating in a legal grey area but I have made this point many times. You hold a different view, east is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet.

Oh right, you're one of those punters who reckon that, deep down, the prostitute you're fucking is doing it because she likes you rather than because she's desperate for money and sees no alternative.

zeffa101 Sat 08-Mar-14 08:42:07

DoctorTwo - By no means all feminists believe that paying for sex should be criminalised. Feminism is a broad church

What the actual fuck? Where have I said this? You really are hard of thinking, aren't you? Not just for this, but for Godwinning the thread too.

I love MRAs. I love their sense of entitlement. Wankers.