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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Amnesty International says laws against buying sex breach men's human rights

999 replies

DonkeySkin · 28/01/2014 08:36

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545003/Amnesty-calls-legal-prostitution-Charity-says-laws-ban-people-buying-selling-sex-breach-human-rights.html

The organisation is planning to adopt a position that calls for the full decriminalisation of the sex industry, including johns and pimps.

It is tabling a paper for its UK branch to vote on that says it is a human right for 'consenting adults' to purchase sexual consent from another person (regardless of the desperate circumstances that person may be in, presumably). The paper also devotes time to that latest favourite cover-all for sex-industry advocates, 'the rights of the disabled', as a reason to allow the continuing expansion of the global sex industry with no oversight or concern from governments.

Apparently the human rights of the (overwhelmingly) women and girls who are coerced, trafficked and enslaved inside the sex industry to satisfy the demand from men for paid sex are of no concern.

Oh, sorry - Amnesty does remember to devote a whole two words to this, conceding that prostitution takes place in an 'imperfect context'. That would presumably be the context of a worldwide patriarchy that devalues female human beings, denies them education, safety and fairly paid work, and tells men they have the right to use their bodies for sex regardless of their actual desires. Not to mention, systemic racism, colonialism and exploitative capitalism.

Good to know Amnesty is prepared to stand up for the most vulnerable people on earth - male sex buyers.

OP posts:
SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 09/03/2014 12:15

No. Much of the harm of prostitution comes from men thinking they have a right to sex with women. That they can buy women to fuck, and that can profit from men buying women to fuck.

You just want legalisation to legitimise your position as having a right to sex.

CaptChaos · 09/03/2014 12:22

It gets worse!

Bribery isn't an emotive word, it's a legal one. It's definition is thus: Bribery is an act of giving money or gift giving that alters the behavior of the recipient. Giving money to a prostituted woman in order to buy her consent is therefore pretty accurately summed up as bribery, unless you're kidding yourself that she would fuck you anyway? You, and other men like you, who see women as disposable fucktoys, are to all intents and purposes bribing women to wank into.

Without having seen a sex worker or read a great deal regarding how they operate (both from those who enjoy their work and those who don't) you would, I think not understand that many clients and sex workers do feel empathy one for another. There is affection (I don't mean romantic love but, very occasionally this does develop). Although cash is entailed it is, at its best more than a mere monetary exchange.

I find this weird. Every single blog post, twitter exchange, forum post I've seen, even by those women who choose to prostitute themselves, has stated, in terms which could brook no misunderstanding, that the absolute worst clients are those who want to feel a 'connection'. They have no 'affection' for punters, you are merely a source of money, it is always a mere monetary exchange. They feel no empathy for you. They see you as a means to an end. This is from women who want to do the job, have not been visibly forced into it through poverty or lack of skills. Imagine what those women feel about you, the ones who have been coerced, forced, have no other choice? Ones like the woman on the other thread, who's 'friend' made her work through pregnancy and was telling her to return to work 2 weeks after major abdominal surgery.

You also failed to answer my question, it's not a surprise, you don't answer any questions really, do you? I'll try again, as an act of purist optimism.

If your contention is that women working together is such a wonderful safe thing, which would eradicate the violence that men perpetrate against them, can you show me any statistics which state that violence against prostitutes has been wiped out in countries where it is legal?

zeffa101 · 09/03/2014 12:22

HowardTJMoon - If you read widely on the subject and listen to interviews with sex workers you will find that many admit to having "favourite clients" and to genuinely liking certain customers. Are you saying that they are lying? You can perform a service for someone and build up a friendship, not just in the area of sex work.

CaptChaos · 09/03/2014 12:24

Much of the harm in prostitution stems from it operating in a legal grey area

WRONG!

ALL of the harm from prostitution comes from men who harm prostitutes. All of it.

HowardTJMoon · 09/03/2014 12:27

So do you have a favourite prostitute? Do you think she regards you as one of her favourite clients? Do you see her socially outside of her bedroom/massage parlour/whatever?

And/or do you also pay to fuck women with whom you haven't yet had an opportunity to "build up a friendship"?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 09/03/2014 12:34

You take the Biscuit

KerryKatonasKhakis · 09/03/2014 12:41

Ha ha Sabrina, that is exactly how I'm imagining him.

'She said she fancied me....Why would she say it if it wasn't true?'

Love Mitchell and Webb.

DonkeySkin · 09/03/2014 12:56

LMAO Sabrina. Ugh, that bloody 'Secret Life of a Call Girl' show. I ended up watching it a lot, because my partner at the time was a big fan Hmm

I had no political analysis of prostitution then, but I remember thinking that there was something really false about this show. The problem is that the view it pushes has become quite entrenched in the public mind, and it's difficult to shift because you need to get people to look at the material reality, which they are often not willing to do. Fairy tales are easier to swallow.

OP posts:
Dervel · 09/03/2014 13:08

Zeffa you gave me a what if scenario earlier, so let me give you one. This is thought experiment not a serious suggestion for going forward, but I would be curious what you would do.

Say we arranged everything as you say, but the catch was you were only legally allowed to visit a prostitute if you were willing to put in several sessions a year sexually servicing men you weren't in the least bit attracted to? Primarily to give punters a level of empathy towards sex workers they wouldn't have ordinarily. Do you think we'd have quite the same level of demand then?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 09/03/2014 13:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GarthsUncle · 09/03/2014 14:09

Good question, Dervel.

JuliaScurr · 09/03/2014 14:49

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/jan/10/billie-piper-interview-barbara-ellen

from para 16

I found this very disturbing; the attitudes spilling over onto an actress playing the role of a prostitute was actually treated in the same way

zeffa101 · 09/03/2014 16:02

Here are a couple of interesting links which express an alternative opinion to that prevalent on this thread. The first (www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/alex-bryce/sex-work-law_b_4858815.html?utm_hp_ref=tw) casts doubt on the rigour of the evidence underpinning the European Parliament's vote to prohibit the purchase of sex, while the second references Belinda Brooks Gordon, an academic who questions the validity of the Nordic model, (www.ibtimes.co.uk/sex-law-expert-belinda-brooks-gordon-why-nordic-model-prostitution-does-not-work-1434028).

zeffa101 · 09/03/2014 16:08

Dervel - I am straight, not gay so I must decline your kind offer for me to visit the sex worker of my choice, at your expense. Incidentally there are some sex workers who will only see men (I.E. women who wouldn't, irrespective of the price see a woman for cash). Many sex workers exercise choice as regards who they see.

DonkeySkin · 09/03/2014 16:09

Are you going to respond to Dervel's hypothetical, zeffa?

OP posts:
zeffa101 · 09/03/2014 16:12

SabrinaMulhollandJjones - Thank you, you are offering me a biscuit. Do I get a cup of tea also, I like it with one sugar and milk please. Most kind

zeffa101 · 09/03/2014 16:15

DonkeySkin - "Are you going to respond to Dervel's hypothetical, zeffa?"
I have responded.

zeffa101 · 09/03/2014 16:19

Donkeyskin and Sabrina - I tried to read "Diary of A Call Girl" but found myself bored to tears. I have read books portraying both positive and negative experiences of those engaged in prostitution including accounts by trafficking victims. All of these held my attention but "Diary" did not.

BriarRainbowshimmer · 09/03/2014 16:20

Hey I thought you had flounced zeffa101. I don't understand this perseverance.
Do you think people here will suddenly change their mind and start thinking it's ok for you to pay to fuck women who don't want you ?

zeffa101 · 09/03/2014 16:24

HowardTJMoon - Would you like to tell me about your sex life? You are asking about mine so what is sauce for the goose is, surely sauce for the gander.

zeffa101 · 09/03/2014 16:28

BriarRainbowshimmer - I don't flounce very well. I've tried but my friends say it isn't convincing (the flouncing that is) so I've given up on it.
I enjoy debating hence my continued participation in the discussion.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 09/03/2014 16:50

You can make your own Brew zeffa.

KerryKatonasKhakis · 09/03/2014 17:06

It doesn't matter that you are straight, not gay. Many prostitutes are lesbian. The point of prostitution is that you have sex with someone who pays you, not that you have sex with someone you are attracted to. Because, that would be just, y'know, sex.

The men would be paying you to overlook the fact that you are not attracted to them and probably want them nowhere near your arsehole.

I know it must hurt to realise that prostitutes most likely do not find you in anyway attractive. Repulsive, even. Possibly disgusting and vomit-worthy Smile

zeffa101 · 09/03/2014 17:08

The following from the Total Politics website is well worhth reading, www.totalpolitics.com/blog/428222/a-response-to-mary-honeyball.thtml

Mary Honeyball, Labour's Spokesperson on the European Parliament's Women's Rights and Gender Equality Committee, has been a vocal supporter of anti-sex
work legislation and has written a report to the European Parliament recommending the Swedish Model, which criminalises the purchase of sex. She recently
wrote an article published in Total Politics on the issue and has appeared regularly commenting on the issue on a variety of BBC platforms including Daily
Politics, Women’s Hour and the Sunday Politics which could be edited together to produce a montage of discredited studies and misleadingly quoted statistics
which have no basis in reality.

Here are a few examples:

• Sunday Politics, 13/10/13: “Statistics tell us that out of brothels and women who are prostituted in London over 90% of them actually have been trafficked.”

Women’s Hour, 4/12/13: “The overwhelming majority of women working in prostitution, prostituted women, have been trafficked.”

On the Daily Politics, 13/12/2013: “Some statistics say as much as 90% of those women who work in prostitution, who are prostituted have actually been trafficked.”

No, they don’t. Estimating the numbers of sex workers in Britain with any degree of accuracy is problematic but the figure that academics in this field
work with at present is around 80,000. Statistics relating to victim referrals to the National Referral Mechanism (NRM) referenced in Human Trafficking:
The Government’s Strategy (2011) recorded 932 adult victims of trafficking in 2010/11, 438 of whom were classified under sexual exploitation; however,
given the illegal and hidden nature of trafficking the figures are likely to be higher than those formally reported.

The ACPO report, Setting the Record, The trafficking of migrant women in the England and Wales off-street prostitution sector (August 2010) found that of
their estimate of 30,000 women in off-street prostitution, around 2,600 were trafficked. If we use the figures quoted in the Setting the Record report
then it is less than 8.7% of off-street female sex workers that are trafficked which obviously doesn’t account for street based sex workers and those who
aren’t female so the percentage of all sex workers will be lower.

Nicola Mai, Professor of Sociology and Migration Studies at London Metropolitan University, in a recent article, Only a minority of UK sex workers have
been trafficked (www.theconversation.com), said, “The moral panic on the supposed prevalence of trafficking in the global sex industry rests on a lie:
that the majority of sex workers are trafficked. In fact, the opposite is true.”

On the Sunday Politics Ms Honeyball was told by London Assembly Member Andrew Boff, who has published well-respected, well-researched and evidenced reports
on both sex work and trafficking, that her claims are simply not true. She was told the same on Women’s Hour by academic Belinda Brooks-Gordon who is
widely published on the subject.

• In her Total Politics blog, Honeyball says the Swedish model “has halved prostitution in Sweden”.

Any claims that street prostitution decreased in Sweden cannot possibly be reliable. It is inevitable that by criminalising an act the number of people
who are willing to admit to partaking in it will decrease. The more stigmatised sex work is, the less likely sex workers are to engage with police and
health services. Though the expected dip in the numbers of visible street sex workers occurred initially, according to the Swedish National Board of Health
and Welfare, by 2007 "about two thirds of street prostitution [was] back."

According to Rose Alliance, a sex worker led organisation in Sweden, there is no evidence at all that the indoor sex markets are slowing down and, if anything,
more people are entering the industry. This is corroborated by academic studies which challenge the claims of success made by supporters of the Swedish
approach. In addition, reports from sex workers and those working on the front line with sex workers confirm that, as expected, a drop in custom has resulted
in lower prices charged, less choice in clients and clients pressing for quicker, more risky transactions, all of which increases the levels of risk and
danger. The Swedish Model has resulted in classic displacement of sex workers and put more sex workers at risk of harm and violence.

• In the Total Politics blog Honeyball claimed: “Much of the opposition to the Swedish Model comes from men who want to maintain the status quo”.

The Swedish Model is opposed by the vast majority of sex workers, academics in this field and those who provide frontline healthcare and support services
to sex workers in the UK. Females would make up the majority in each of these categories.

• In the Total Politics blog she also refers to “a study finding that 49% of British men have travelled abroad for sex.”

Follow the link in the article on the Total Politics website to learn more about this study by Melissa Farley (whose work has been widely discredited),
Julie Bindel and Jacqueline M. Golding.

The clue is in the sample as you can see from the description: “A sample of 103 men in London, England, who used trafficked and non-trafficked women in
prostitution were asked about their experiences and awareness of the sex industry.” So, when she said “49% of men” she actually meant “49% of men in London
who already admit to “using” trafficked and non-trafficked women in prostitution based on a small sample of 103.

The language used by Mary Honeyball and some of the other people advocating the Swedish model based on an ideological objection to sex work, set within
a particular radical feminist framework, is extremely offensive and, at times, discriminatory. It dehumanises sex workers, denies their agency and further
entrenches stigma and, as we know from the tragic murder of Petite Jasmine in Sweden, stigma can be fatal. This was expressed by Jasmine’s mother who
said of the Swedish authorities: “I know who held the knife, but they might as well have put it in his hands.”

These issues are emotive and politicians will argue that they need to use language which may offend some people to get their point across and advocate for
the changes they want to see. However, what is not tolerable is the blatant and casual misrepresenting of facts and evidence to manipulate people into
supporting a specific viewpoint. This is shameful and politicians should know better.
Alex Bryce, Manager, National Ugly Mugs Scheme (NUM)
Rosie Campbell OBE, Chief Executive, Genesis and Chair, NUM Advisory Group.
Dr. Mary Laing, Lecturer in Criminology, Northumbria University.
Jane Pitcher, Board Academic Representative, UK Network of Sex Work Projects.
Shelly Stoops, Operational Manager, SAFE Place Merseyside, Liverpool Community Health NHS Trust.

zeffa101 · 09/03/2014 17:14

SabrinaMulhollandJjones - On second thoughts I will pop down the pub for a beer before someone tries to prohibit that also.