The Feminist Pub - come in and chat.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

This is something like the fourth pub chat thread - please pull up a chair at the bar. Everyone welcome.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1920422-The-Feminist-Pub-continued?

But it's pretty much full so welcome in.

I'm not terribly au fait with gender politics I'm afraid - was he calling us cis-sexist for concentrating on women in prostitution?

I'm not sure I really know what cis-sexism means. Is it anti-trans? I've not really read the transgender threads here.

Come to think of it, it was only very recently that I realised 'women's studies' had been replaced by 'gender studies' - is that right?

Having glanced at the thread, I think he was calling us cis-sexist because he could.

I honestly can't figure out more than that.

I believe being cis-sexism isn't necessarily deliberately anti-trans, it's like sexism towards woman - it covers the unintentional assumption you're not privileged/your situation is the default. So saying 'women menstruate' could be construed as cissexism, because transwomen do not.

I believe being anti-trans would be more like misogyny.

*gender theory, not politics.

Ah, I see. That makes sense.

Cross post.

Yes, often it has. That is what I get really angry about. I get that it is valid to study gender, or masculinities, or whatever. I do it myself. But it makes me so angry that gender studies/queer studies are ideologically opposed to a lot of radical feminism, yet people seem to assume if you are a woman have to agree with gender studies.

I was reading something by a woman academic who was pointing out that increasingly, 'queer' is used to mean 'gay male'. It's not that 'queer studies' is giving lesbians a bigger platform than women's studies (so far as I understand, not being a lesbian).

I think it all filters down and that's why people get so fucking stupid about very very basic issues like prostitution and rape - their heads are too far up their own arses trying to work out how it fits into 'gender studies'.

I'm tired too.

Realizing in my post of 23:35 my phrase 'I believe' is ambiguous. I mean, 'I believe this is what people mean by the term,' not 'this is my personal position'.

From the thread: "This discussion is so heternormative and cis-sexist."
Obviously meant to distract us from the fact that it mainly is men buying women/girls. We aren't supposed to notice.

Ah, yes. Because all hookers are happy hookers, so none of them are lesbians, correct?

I may be crediting him with too much intelligence there, it's probably just mudslinging.

He's scraping around in desperation now - he's just brought the Melissa Farley thing back up again.

Wasn't it him up thread who had said lesbians also pay for prostitutes as frequently as men?

By denying that lesbians love to buy hookers we're being heteronornitive, I guess.

I can't see the cis thing at all, because while I will admit I don't think the vast majority of prostitutes were born biologically men, I won't disagree that transexuals are also trafficked. And so unless he considers them to not be women himself who hereused the terms "biological females" are being used by men? No one. Only that women are used by men.

Sorry that's all a bit rambly, I'm exhausted.

The AI live webchat left me feeling like if that's the position Amnesty want to take then I'm at odds with a human rights group - and i never thought that would happen. Then I watched question time and have to listen to rape myths and apologists and i want to know how the BBC can get away with allowing that without qualification in the name of debate. Now I've been on twitter and my timeline is full of the damage porn does, abuse of women and girls and frankly I'm getting so fucking angry!

All it is going to take is for a poster to spout something about consensual prostitution again and I'll wind up getting a mumsnet ban. I'm feeling so angry!

Does anyone sometimes feel they have to take a break from thinking about it all - just so they don't feel furious?

Yes Sauce, that stuff on that thread made me feel physically nauseous.

I went from that to reading "Apple Tree Yard" in which a rapist was murdered and I thought, "so? Not much of a problem for me "morally at all". Live by the sword and all that.

Arghh, don't let me kill the thread by my being too "robust". Quick, somebody talk over me. I'm female and so am used to that.

I would like the never hear the phrase "it's between two consenting adults" again.

When people talk about prostitution or other sexual exploitation, btw.
It makes it sound like both have equal power.

I got a bit teary earlier. Thought the only place for me was a feminist pub. Booze and feminists will see me right!

Cunty I couldn't have cared less about the rapist getting murdered in Aplle Tree Yard either. I practically cheered when I realised what had happened to him, he deserved it. I suspect that makes me a bad person but meh.

And yes sauce I avoided that AI webchat because I was already feeling very angry and didn't think I'd be able to cope with that on top of all the things that I've had to deal with irl recently.

I don't think you're being to robust CuntyBunty. Have you read Dirty Weekend? Nice concept, but I could have done without the descriptions of male violence - if all I knew about those men was that they were violent rapists I would still cheer for the female main character (who kills them)

Here you go Sauce

Thank you

Cheers Briar, I haven't read, "Dirty Weekend". I will enjoy that, well, the outcome in it, at least.

Did anyone else think "Apple Tree Yard" was quite a good Feminist novel? Guy's affair, "negated" Yvonne's affair, for me. Then Guy became amazing in my eyes when he demonstrated "fear" to the barrister with the knife. Great stuff, really valid to have a sexually active woman in her 50's as a heroine. She was a heroine for me.

Due to there being two Freyas posting in FWR, often on the same threads, I have changed my username from FreyaSnow. I am just posting here to say so to avoid some kind of weird sockpuppetry confusion happening.

Sorry not to follow the subject being discussed but I just need to come into the pub and sit in a snug corner somewhere and have a safe place to tell what happened to me today. It isn't terrible or anything, but I feel very upset about it. Maybe women in here might understand. I was having a carpet fitted yesterday (very reputable national chain, have been great in the showroom etc) but the fitter didn't come. I don't want to go into too much detail. He also tried to get out of coming today but I think the people in the showroom had a real go at him, anyway, he arrived. He was horrible. He went on and on about his personal life and how everything yesterday had gone very wrong for him but noone believed him and how it was very incnvenient for him to be working on a Sunday, the implication was I was very lucky etc. Some of the personal things he was going on about were complaints about his ex-wife etc.

Anyway, I don't know why, but I found the whole thing really upsetting. He basically "creeped me out" - he wasn't overtly rude or aggressive but he was.......creepy. He didn't do a great job either. I have been on to the people in the showroom who were lovely about it (I was in tears when I phoned them) and have said that he was out of order and they will be speaking to him. (and sorting out the bad job)

This evening, I can't shake it off. Irrationally, I still feel "weird" about it. And a bit down. I feel a bit stupid for letting it affect me so much.

Anyway, sits in corner behind a cushion with a warm mug of cocoa!

Rosa, it's because he was using you. He didn't care about your body language, your comfort level, what you wanted, he was going to share anyway. And as he was in your home, and presumably physically stronger than you, it made you feel even more trapped.