The Feminist Pub - come in and chat.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

This is something like the fourth pub chat thread - please pull up a chair at the bar. Everyone welcome.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1920422-The-Feminist-Pub-continued?

But it's pretty much full so welcome in.

Grrr. Was watching QI (with its token single female contestant) and there was a question about goats. So what image did they choose to illustrate this? A group of naked women with a goat. Obviously. WTF? How can no-one in a programme meeting have said 'hey, is this really an appropriate image to use in a show like QI?'

Uptoapoint I work in a science field (commercial) and it is known the senior management is concerned about how to increase the number of women in certain sections of the company. A big part of the problem seems to be imposter syndrome, since there are so few women in those roles women who are potential candidates don't put themselves forward because (the women I've spoken to about this) don't see themselves as fitting that role, very much from a personality viewpoint rather than technical or knowledge based viewpoint. Interestingly they have recently recruited a woman to be head of the problematic section. It's created a real buzz among the women in the company so it will be interesting to see if there is a change.

lego It is interesting about the imposter syndrome, isn't it? And yet there is also some study that says that correlation between people who say they can do it and their actual ability is quite low. Therefore if we allow this structural inhibition of the less-confident we end up promoting/hiring people who have more hot air than substance.

Well that web chat was hugely dissatisfying.

Why is it when only discussing women's bodies and sex (rape) that we need to take the easy way out? it's too hard to stop prostitution so might as well make it legal?

You can't stop rape so just tell women not to leave their house.

Everything else you make a law and it stands, even in an imperfect world.. even when you can't always enforce it. It makes me so angry

A group of naked women with a goat.

I watched that i didn't even question the picture other than to wonder if it was from the Dove campaign.. it just washes over you so much of the time.

'And yet there is also some study that says that correlation between people who say they can do it and their actual ability is quite low. '

IME especially among people brought up with the unearned 'self esteem' culture (especially rife in the USA). I work in a scientific software company and have come across quite a few of these along the way - I'm glad to say that their attrition rate has been relatively high and the people who've survived have by and large been the people who can do.

That reminds me I need to complete the self-assessment part of my performance review ... which being a female brit consists of few words and awarding myself 'meets expectations' - because as I've explained to my manager, what else should someone who's been in a job for 25 years do?

Errol I think you should say "exceeds all expectations"

But I could only put that if I had a low opinion of my abilities. Doesn't really matter what I put, its what my manager thinks that counts.

Has anyone had this advert on MN yet?

Young Lady Car Insurance

Erroll, could you take it to mean meets the expectation of others? I can often exceed other people's expectations while simultaneously failing to meet my own. So I happily evaluate myself as 'exceeds expectations' in some areas despite knowing that there are still things that I could, and probably should, improve for my own piece of mind.

Therefore if we allow this structural inhibition of the less-confident we end up promoting/hiring people who have more hot air than substance.

And then those people hire people in their own likeness and so the cycle continues...

I was reading somewhere that everyone overestimates their past performance but women overestimate less than men so if you have 2 candidates for a job who sound similar you should recruit the woman because she will be exaggerating her performance less.

I think 'exceeds expectations' is about how you performance against your job description. So, e.g., if you manage 3 people or projects but your job description says at your level you would be expected to manage 1-2 people or projects then you are exceeding expectations. Or if you have 10 weeks to do a piece of work but you complete it in 6 weeks (and the 10 weeks can be shown to be a realistic milestone) then you have exceeded expectations. It's not about the expectations of others (who know you are good at your job) or yourself (who will always judge yourself badly, until you start looking back at your performance in a year or so!) which are much more nebulous.

Morning.

errol, I hate self-assessment. Can you make it more concrete so it's easier? Eg., 'Successfully completed project x despite difficulty y' stuff?

self-assessment = EITHER we can't be bothered to evaluate your work and workload OR actually we haven't got our act together and have no idea what your work and workload should be and you are doing a great job but actually not quite good enough to be promoted but of course it's not because you are no good it's just that it is so hard to know how to evaluate a part-time workload you don't know how hard my life is etc etc.

(Have I given away something? )

Oh, our self-assessment is just one stage in the process. The first is the objective setting which is the final stage of the previous year's review, then SA, then manager's assessment, discussion, then they work out how to divvy up the available salary increase between the members of the group and whether anyone is due for a promotion. It's actually fine, especially with my current manager who I've known for years. So I should 'meet her expectations' too. But usually she grades most of the items the next notch up which suits me fine.

Can't Take Rhino Anymore.

Must Have Gin.

There is rhino shit all over that thread now, doctrine.

I don't understand the rhino, it's acting like a bull in a china shop and making the pro-punter side seem like a bunch of desperate sociopaths (unable to care about others) - not that they need help with that. The highly offensive "spammer" is also bizarre as this person never actually appear to read other's comments.

rhino in a china shop

for me, please, barwoman. I'm de-toxing.

I'm trying to ignore the rhino.

I will however serve up , , and whatever else you wish.

I'll take both thank you
Phew...
This Amnesty stuff has been really upsetting to me. When a human right's organization supports pimps and users over vulnerable girls and women...things are really bad.

It just seems so unlikely that AI would do this, doesn't it?

I mean, it reads like a DailyMash article - human right to sex with prostitutes enshrined by Amnesty International

It's sounds like a laughable MRA blogpost or something. I can't believe that webchat actually happened.

I know.

Sorry, I know this is polemic ... but I do think it is to do with feminism being pushed to one side by 'gender theory'. I think that's the only way people convince themselves that this isn't a gendered issue and that, somehow, this can be acceptable.

We were called 'cis-sexist' by rhino on that thread, LRD - a clue?

I think I must've blanked that bit out. I think 'cis-sexist' gets thrown around by anyone who disagrees with anything.

But it's the whole thing, isn't it? Every time you try to say something is an issue that affects women, there's an effort to chip away around the edges and insist you can't say that. I don't just mean people talking about cissexism, I mean people have a knee-jerk response that you can't ever simply say something is sexist. Everything has to be provisional and ambiguous and excitingly transgressive.