The Feminist Pub - come in and chat.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

This is something like the fourth pub chat thread - please pull up a chair at the bar. Everyone welcome.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1920422-The-Feminist-Pub-continued?

But it's pretty much full so welcome in.

India Knight in the Sunday Times too. Gah.

Hi Weevils, love your name, two boys eating chocolate to control, so prob back tomorrow sometime.

((Actual post from thread))

I've name changed for obvious reasons.

I'm writing this knowing that I'll get shouted at but I hope some of you will at least appreciate that I'm being honest.

I own a small business in the city of London. There are 6 of us in the company, all permanent staff on good salaries (touching six figures on average) and everyone is male.

For the first 6 months or so of someone's career with us they're still learning and contributing little to the bottom line.

If I had female staff and one was to become pregnant I'd have to do the following:

Start reducing their hours, especially as the due date approaches I can't expect them to work the same silly hours as the rest of us.

Secondly I'd have to look for a replacement to cover maternity leave. I have to keep the job open for the person to return to in a year's time so I can't recruit a new permanent employee, I'd have to get a contractor and they cost a lot more than perms. Assuming I can find someone good who will work on a contract of course.

The person coming in will take a long time to get up to speed during which time we're all working even longer to cover (yes, that's no different to if one of the guys left but training up a perm is an investment, training a contractor isn't)

Then I'd need to cover maternity pay, which in our industry averages 9 months on 75% then statutory. The money I could get back from the government wouldn't come close to covering this.

Finally, should the new mother return I've got to retrain her (nothing stands still for long) and if not I've either got to convince the cover to take a pay cut and go perm or start again looking for a replacement. If she comes back there's the added risk that I've got to create a part time job (our clients don't want a part time relationship with us, how am I supposed to deal with it?) or at least there's a chance she won't be able to be as flexible on working hours as the rest of us are - we stay at work until the job is done, leaving on time everyday is not an option

This is a huge expense, upheaval and drain on resources for a small company so why take the risk with the business (remember we support 6 families) when a much safer option is hiring another man?

I'm fully aware of the legal situation but it never comes to that. Recruitment agents / headhunters know not to send female CVs to small companies (and they're very open about this, unofficially of course) unless the kids have flown the roost and there's no chance of more.

This isn't about sexism, in the past when I was working in larger companies it was obvious that having women in the office made a huge difference to the company, this is just about economics.

I'm not saying this is right or fair or legal, please don't reply saying "people like you should have died out in the dark ages" or "women wouldn't want to work for a sexist wanker like you" as that's missing the point.

This is what happens all the time though and I haven't seen a solution anywhere

And until men start taking leave and requesting flexible working, that attitude won't die out.

I do not believe that the norm for that industry is 75% pay, that is very generous.

He says he isn't being sexist.. It's just simple economics. I don't get it because I have a vagina

what was that about positive discrimination going to far against men again?

I think he genuinely believes he's not being sexist or discriminatory, doesn't he?

It can't be proven, he's been honest enough to say it, plenty of others do it. This is what we're all up against.

It's the biggest "I'm not sexist but...." I've ever seen.

I'm really struggling to not get in to personal attack territory.. because I think he's acting in the way someone who is a total cock would.

I don't really want to talk about a thread on another thread, but I've yet to come across a City area of business where that level of maternity pay is normal either. And I've spent a lot of time advising City businesses.

Snatch - India Knight. Sigh. About 10 years ago I quite liked her. But Twitter seems to have inflated her sense of self importance out of all recognition. That or she's always been like this and, as my feminist views have developed, I find her less tolerable.

I obviously can't link because of the firewall but the column is basically about Irma Kurtz giving an interview on Woman's Hour. I didn't hear it so can't comment. But Knight goes on to say that telling women not to get horribly drunk is common sense as a precaution against rape.

I see this sooooo often and it seems like the real position is too subtle for people to get their heads around. I can see that, at a surface level, it seems to make sense to say to your daughters 'don't make yourself more vulnerable than life/circumstances already make you'. I get that. But there are two important distinctions:

1/ Not getting horribly drunk is good advice for males and females as it makes you less vulnerable as a victim of crime. All sorts of crime. Most of it just property crime like having your wallet nicked, but some of it violent. It also makes you less vulnerable to nasty, life changing accidents and bad judgment calls (like the boy at my school who died when he decided it was a good idea to jump into a harbour when horribly drunk).

2/ The best way to reduce your daughter's chances of being raped are to educate her about respectful relationships and personal boundaries. And to understand about abuse and what it means (actually from quite a young age) Because the risk of a stranger in a dark alleyway pales into insignificance compared to the risk of abuse by a partner or family member.

India also has this ridiculous passage where she says 'cars can be weapons, no one would blink if we told someone not to drink drunk' (I paraphrase), completely, utterly and wilfully missing the fact that her analogy would relate to the perpetrator and not the victim. Can't see anywhere in her column her saying "And the corollary of all this advice is teaching boys not to get drunk so that they don't rape someone."

Mmm, I was about to type 'don't let it get to you' and bookmark the thread for the next time Mike Buchanan's cronies come on and tell us women have it better than men

But then I thought - how can we not let this get to us?? This is what's happening to women all over the place. The employment laws just aren't protecting us from blatant discrimination. That's something to get angry about.

Weevils - I really don't have any parenting advice I am afraid. I've been thinking, but I don't.

But I do want to say this: some girls do find being a teenager really rough. I found it shit. Some key social skills weren't really taught to me by my parents (in terms of blunt honesty not always being the best plan, and people being hurt or upset by some things you can say without you meaning to). I was quite angsty and very lonely. I immersed myself in books and study. But I came through it. University (after a shitty first year) was a real turning point for me. Suddenly, there was competition to be the best. Suddenly I could start again. I think I came through it all pretty unscathed. By my early 20s I was a pretty happy person most of the time.

Yup, that's the one, Penguins. And NOWHERE in the column does she acknowledge that over 80% of rapes are by men we know, so better advice is to not make male friends, have relationships with men or be related to any men...

Weevils, are you Torchwood Weevils or Bin Weevils?

I think I should just hide that thread and look at pics of kittens instead.

harrisonamy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/copywriting.jpg

he's got a little scarf on!

Yes, kittens

Weevils -the others are right that a lot of girls do find being a teenager tough, no matter how good their parents have been. I look at my class of 30 teenagers at school and probably 15 or 16 (some girls struggling with being girls, some boys struggling with being boys) of them have had some sort of big issue in the past year and that's in an area where the majority of our kids come from 'nice', middle class families. So when you add in an EA dad as well there's no wonder your dd is finding the teenage years tough.

I think the best you can possibly do is continue to let her know that you're there for her no matter what, keep the lines of communications open so she can talk to you about problems she's having, and maybe work on your own issues so that you are stronger to support her. I'm not entirely sure how you would go about working on your own issues, is there anyone irl you can talk to, is there any therapy you can access?

Awww, a cute little kitten. I don't even like cats.

Just seen weevils posts, does your daughter have any interest in just going "no contact" with her father? I think emphasis on parental involvement often comes at the expense of the children. I had abusive parents (physical/emotional) the times when I just refused to deal with them as a teenager are the times I was most normal. At 15 she doesn't have to see him does she?

I know, it's rough being a teenager. Thanks for the reminder. I guess I am worried that she won't come through it because I didn't, and never having been mothered I have no clue what I should be doing or how much it could help.

This afternoon she announced to both her DF and me that she thinks she's bi. I am stunned —and pleased—that she can say something like that to us, I'd never have been able (or wanted!) to tell my DPs any such thing.

There are so many other aspects of femaleness that I can't handle and don't know how to help her with, though it may be that as in this case she doesn't need my help.

Weevils - I've got a 15-in-two-days-time DD .... I'm so sorry your DD is having such a tough time. for you both.

'How do you explain to a girl that you have brought her into a world where she can't just be herself?' My answer to this would be Don't do any such thing. She can be herself - whatever that may be. I guess it's something we've been telling our DD all her life, and apart from her idiot yr1 teacher (upthread somewhere) she's never had any reason to think otherwise.

'the pressures on/expectations of girls' TBH I'm not to sure what significant pressure/expectation there is at 15 that is specific to girls. Without knowing more about her, I may be way off base but perhaps she's got something out of perspective?

x-post ... well maybe scrap my last sentence but the rest still applies.

PleaseLeave, she seems to have gone minimal contact: he drops her home from school a couple of times a week and she invariably wants to (and does) come to my house, not his.
Otherwise he might take her on very occasional outings with her older half-sister, or for a meal with his DM.

He is not (yet?) EA with her, I think she just gets bored at his house. But he did stop speaking to her elder sister for years and I could see that happening quite easily with my DD too. She complained the other day that she can tease me all day and it's fine, but he is liable to fly off the handle if she tries it with him.

It was only within the past couple of years that I realised he was EA to me while we were together.

While obviously I don't want anything like that to happen to her, I also don't want her to spend her teenage years cooped up alone with me—I have terrible social anxiety and find it hard to get out of the house and be around people, other than for work.
I don't want her to fall into that pattern and then find she can't break it when she's older.

Hi ladies, can I have a even though it's a school night?
I used to enjoy the 'You Say' section in the Sunday Times (readers' pithy reviews of recent TV offerings). Today there was one which has got my back up - "We have suffered hours of misery watching an inept English men's cricket team being humiliated by Australia on Sky Sports. The brilliant women's XI, however are afforded 30 seconds on Sky News. Why aren't legions of women protesting?" - Colin Munro

Why aren't legions of sports fans protesting Colin? Is it only women who should be annoyed? Maybe women are as unaware as men that the women's cricket team is doing well - after all they get no coverage!! Maybe women are less aware actually - any coverage they do see shows how unwelcome women are in the world of sport.

Good point sister!

Weevils, maybe the announcement that she is bi will make her happier as this may be something that she has been worrying about and keeping close to her chest for a while. It may be that getting that out to you, and getting your loving response, will make her feel better. How are you feeling about things today?

Hello!

sister Yes, that's a very good point. I asked the same question at work - we have a retaining-women-in-science thing going on and mostly it's women doing the work. And some people (men) can't see anything wrong with it. It drives me up the fucking wall. Women, do something about the inequality you are suffering because no one else gives a fuck about it, and if while you are doing it your own career suffers, hey, it's because you want equality, init, and you should work for it.