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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

feminism v MRA's

96 replies

spence82 · 07/11/2013 16:02

Hi all

I've been reading this board for the last couple of months as I'm keen to learn more on the subject. I see bits written about MRA's trolling etc but what I'd like to know is are there any MRA groups trying to work along side feminists for the good of children?

I've been trying to read more about the MRA groups but they don't get a good rep on here and to be fair googling it seems to mainly bring up negative stories. I'm sure there are plenty of men who aren't bothered about there kids.

I know of a few who were at school with me who are like that but even if just one good man is being restricted from seeing his kids by a vindictive mother and gets help from a group like that wouldn't it be worth it?

Im not trying to stir up an argument and may seem a little naive about it but like I said I'm trying to learn more about it.

Hope that makes sense

OP posts:
BasilBabyEater · 08/11/2013 23:56

I want my DS to be loved for himself, for who he is and what he is, not in spite of what he is. I want him to know that any future female partner he has, is with him because she wholeheartedly wants to be with him, not because the other options society offers her are less good for her than staying with him. I don't want him to have any nagging doubts that she's only with him because it's better than poverty and social stigma - I want him to have access to relationships that aren't corrupted by uneven power balances. He deserves better than to live with someone who might not live with him, if her other options were better.

The Men's Rights movement isn't offering him that. Feminism is.

OpheliaMonarch · 09/11/2013 05:38

Just wondering, was the deleted comment by MRA wanna be honey badger, SigmundFraude aimed at me? Wondered if anyone knew.

'Cause everytime I mention Man Boobz old Siggy has a tanty.

What's the matter Siggy, did we kick your arse in the comments section? Or were you banned, as you should be here?

I would post here more often, but a feminist space infested with MRAs? MN should be wielding that banhammer.

This should be a safe space for feminists to talk. Not one routinely inhabited by individuals who openly admit to being MRAs and anti-feminists.

If this were a section dealing with racial discrimination would MN allow white supremacists their say?

Also, spence, if you were so keen to learn about MRAs why the hell would you ask feminists?

There is a name for what you attempted to start here, it's called JAQing off.

Don't be that person.

rationalwiki.org/wiki/JAQing_off

johanna55 · 10/11/2013 22:43

"You want not to be accused of violence and rape ? Well, don't hit and don't rape. Simple."

The man in this story didn't rape or hit anyone...

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10422771/How-wild-rumour-led-a-mob-to-murder-an-innocent-man.html

BasilBabyEater · 10/11/2013 22:51

Ah yes, that man who was killed by... 2 men.

In a culture of violence which MRA's are doing nothing to oppose.

What do MRA's propose should be done about the casual violence which is so much part of our communities and which occasionally overspills into horrific crimes like this one?

TheDoctrineOfWho · 10/11/2013 22:53

You are a busy bee tonight, johanna.

johanna55 · 10/11/2013 22:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MooncupGoddess · 10/11/2013 23:02

What are MRAs doing to protect people from false accusations of mugging or insurance fraud?

Er, nothing, because like your rhetorical question it's a total non-sequitur.

johanna55 · 10/11/2013 23:04

False accusations of theft or fraud don't destroy someone's life in the same way an accusation of rape or child abuse would.

johanna55 · 10/11/2013 23:06

And I don't support your "we believe you" campaign.

I believe in innocent until proven guilty and everyone has the right to a fair trial. I don't think it's right to automatically declare someone guilty before any evidence has been presented or both sides of the story have been heard.

TheDoctrineOfWho · 10/11/2013 23:07

Johanna

It would seem from that story that there was no accusation actually made against the man as in there were no allegations taken by any child or adult to the police. His arrest was for breaching the peace.

It seems there were elements of racism and disablism at play too.

Now, once more for the cheap seats, what's the relevance of your story to your "point"?

WhentheRed · 10/11/2013 23:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

scallopsrmissingAnyFucker · 10/11/2013 23:23

I know quite a lot about that case. Doctrine's summation is pretty accurate. The man was only ever accused of being a paedophile by rumour. These men who killed him were part of that rumour mill. Where exactly does feminist responsibility for this violence and murder actually lie? Why is it feminists who are responsible for stopping witch hunts and false accusations?

Johanna can I ask you what men are doing about male violence?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 10/11/2013 23:33

How despicable and disingenuous for Johanna to use that horrendous case as example of a false rape allegation. It was nothing of the sort. It is just another example of male violence.

CaptChaos · 11/11/2013 05:41

What is feminism doing to protect people from false accusations and witchhunts? Nothing, instead you help fuel paranoia that most men are dangerous sex predators and that there is a pedo or rapist on every street.

No, this myth is perpetuated by newspapers such as the Sun and the Mail, neither of which could be described as feminist apologists.

And you have that "we believe you" campaign which basically says there is no such thing as a false accusation.

No, that is a rape myth. The We Believe You campaign is there to support the vast majority of women who never report their rape. Hopefully, it might encourage every woman who has been raped to report it, which may lead to every rapist being convicted which can only be a good thing, surely?

I believe in innocent until proven guilty and everyone has the right to a fair trial. I don't think it's right to automatically declare someone guilty before any evidence has been presented or both sides of the story have been heard.

Does that mean you would have intervened? Stood in front of the baying mob as that innocent man was beaten and burned alive?

Who decided that that man was a peado? Who started the rumours about him and a 14 year old girl locked in his house?
Who beat him?
Who set him on fire?
Was it feminists? Or was it a bunch of racists who 'othered' a man from a different country, who liked his cat, his flowers and kept himself to himself?

This murder had more to do with certain racist groups which insist that all Muslim men are peadophiles. Feminists do not want innocent men to go to prison for rape, we would like to see more guilty men there though. It would be nice to think that all right-minded people want to see people who are guilty of crimes such as rape punished.

MistAllChuckingFrighty · 11/11/2013 09:48

Where have you gone, Johanna?

Keepithidden · 11/11/2013 12:11

^I've never understood why a decent, caring man would need to join a men's rights movement. What rights do they honestly think they are lacking ? I honestly can't think of a single area where men are 'other' or are held back or punished simply because of their sex.

You want equal rights as parents ? Well, grow up, accept responsibility, take paternity leave, take the hit on the career and finances, be there for your babies and children, support them financially and emotionally, don't walk out, don't provide child support grudgingly, do it freely and willingly.

You want not to be accused of violence and rape ? Well, don't hit and don't rape. Simple. Don't be so offended that I'm afraid of you - look at why I'm afraid of you.

You want support centres for men and increased funding for male cancers ? Well, bloody well get off your arses and do something about it. Just because I donate to one cancer charity doesn't mean that the well has run dry. Stop seeing it as one or the other. You need different facilities for us so stop demanding access to ours and work our what specific support men need and provide it.

You want to abolish sexism ? Well, stop being sexist, stop thinking women's bodies are there for your pleasure, teach your sons that they don't have an entitlement to sex, call out sexism, support your wives, mothers, daughters, colleagues in not participating. Stop accusing them of being humourless harpies who constantly nag. Try actually doing the housework and stop expecting praise when you do.

You want other men to support you ? Well stop accusing them of being pussy whipped sissies and ask. You get a lot more help when you simply ask instead of attacking.

Stop blaming women, stop blaming full stop.

Recognise that a woman angry with the system isn't angry with you so stop being so offended because it really isn't about you, it's about a system that we're all part of. It's about women being beaten, being raped, being killed, being demeaned, being sidelined, every godamn day of our lives - stop to think that maybe, just maybe, it's okay for us to be pissed off about that. And that it's okay for us to want to change that^

Great post this, and all true IMO.

However, it is quite a personal attack on men and their behaviour (not that this isn't necessary), so I don't think the caveat in the last paragraph about it "not being angry with you" is necessarily accurate. If it is, and you really can seperate the system from those men who are compliant within it, then you're a better person than me.

Keepithidden · 11/11/2013 12:12

D'oh, can never get the hang of the quote thing. Sorry if that looks a bit confused.

duchesse · 11/11/2013 12:48

Thank you for reposting that Keep (can't think how I'd missed it the first time), and thank you to Blistory for posting . It sums everything up for me. Maybe we should use it as a standard response whenever we get MRA trolls? It says it all.

Darkesteyes · 12/11/2013 00:17

That link is absolutely heartbreaking. Sad But i agree with the consensus here It is to do with male violence and racism.

SagaciousOne · 16/11/2013 11:40

News
Society
Domestic violence

More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male, report reveals
Campaign group Parity claims assaults by wives and girlfriends are often ignored by police and media

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Denis Campbell	
The Observer, Sunday 5 September 2010	
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DOMESTIC VIOLENCE BY WOMEN AGAINST MEN
Assaults on men represent more than 40% of domestic violence in the UK. Photograph: Sakki/Rex Features/Sakki/rex

About two in five of all victims of domestic violence are men, contradicting the widespread impression that it is almost always women who are left battered and bruised, a new report claims.

Men assaulted by their partners are often ignored by police, see their attacker go free and have far fewer refuges to flee to than women, says a study by the men's rights campaign group Parity.

The charity's analysis of statistics on domestic violence shows the number of men attacked by wives or girlfriends is much higher than thought. Its report, Domestic Violence: The Male Perspective, states: "Domestic violence is often seen as a female victim/male perpetrator problem, but the evidence demonstrates that this is a false picture."

Data from Home Office statistical bulletins and the British Crime Survey show that men made up about 40% of domestic violence victims each year between 2004-05 and 2008-09, the last year for which figures are available. In 2006-07 men made up 43.4% of all those who had suffered partner abuse in the previous year, which rose to 45.5% in 2007-08 but fell to 37.7% in 2008-09.

Similar or slightly larger numbers of men were subjected to severe force in an incident with their partner, according to the same documents. The figure stood at 48.6% in 2006-07, 48.3% the next year and 37.5% in 2008-09, Home Office statistics show.

The 2008-09 bulletin states: "More than one in four women (28%) and around one in six men (16%) had experienced domestic abuse since the age of 16. These figures are equivalent to an estimated 4.5 million female victims of domestic abuse and 2.6 million male victims."

In addition, "6% of women and 4% of men reported having experienced domestic abuse in the past year, equivalent to an estimated one million female victims of domestic abuse and 600,000 male victims".

Campaigners claim that men are often treated as "second-class victims" and that many police forces and councils do not take them seriously. "Male victims are almost invisible to the authorities such as the police, who rarely can be prevailed upon to take the man's side," said John Mays of Parity. "Their plight is largely overlooked by the media, in official reports and in government policy, for example in the provision of refuge places – 7,500 for females in England and Wales but only 60 for men."

The official figures underestimate the true number of male victims, Mays said. "Culturally it's difficult for men to bring these incidents to the attention of the authorities. Men are reluctant to say that they've been abused by women, because it's seen as unmanly and weak."

The number of women prosecuted for domestic violence rose from 1,575 in 2004-05 to 4,266 in 2008-09. "Both men and women can be victims and we know that men feel under immense pressure to keep up the pretence that everything is OK," said Alex Neil, the housing and communities minister in the Scottish parliament. "Domestic abuse against a man is just as abhorrent as when a woman is the victim

BasilBabyEater · 16/11/2013 12:19

Those figures have been de-bunked time and time again. They are referring to one attack which is often self-defence and in studies conducted into these figures, it was shown that many of these male victims of DV were actually also perpetrators. Also men who are subjected to real DV (as opposed to self-defence) are more likely to report after only one attack, versus the 30+ attacks the average female victim of DV endures before she reports. So the patternof DV for males is completely and totally different for men and women with women suffering far more chronic, ongoing and serious abuse than men.

But it doesn't matter how many times you point that out, MRA's who are fully aware of that continue to post misleading figures in order to pretend that men are as much in danger in their own homes from their female partners as women are in their own homes from their male partners. Because they want to believe it for some reason.

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