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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

feminism v MRA's

96 replies

spence82 · 07/11/2013 16:02

Hi all

I've been reading this board for the last couple of months as I'm keen to learn more on the subject. I see bits written about MRA's trolling etc but what I'd like to know is are there any MRA groups trying to work along side feminists for the good of children?

I've been trying to read more about the MRA groups but they don't get a good rep on here and to be fair googling it seems to mainly bring up negative stories. I'm sure there are plenty of men who aren't bothered about there kids.

I know of a few who were at school with me who are like that but even if just one good man is being restricted from seeing his kids by a vindictive mother and gets help from a group like that wouldn't it be worth it?

Im not trying to stir up an argument and may seem a little naive about it but like I said I'm trying to learn more about it.

Hope that makes sense

OP posts:
spence82 · 08/11/2013 13:43

Blistory that is an excellent post and certainly an eye opener.

I'd like to think or maybe hope is a better word that the majority of men agree with what you say.

OP posts:
Blistory · 08/11/2013 13:48

Spence, I'm curious - why is it an eye opener ? Are you not aware that this is how things current are ?

SigmundFraude · 08/11/2013 14:06

'Stop blaming women, stop blaming full stop.'

After writing a post full of blame for men? Dear me. Your post, whilst true in part, is very black and white. If you stop doing A, then B will happen....really? It's that simple?

Life, unfortunately, is way more nuanced than that.

'You want support centres for men and increased funding for male cancers ? Well, bloody well get off your arses and do something about it. Just because I donate to one cancer charity doesn't mean that the well has run dry. Stop seeing it as one or the other. You need different facilities for us so stop demanding access to ours and work our what specific support men need and provide it.'

I would agree with this in part, but sometimes it isn't that easy as men just aren't taken seriously enough, by other 'I'm alright Jack' men it seems:

www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/04/29/earl-silverman-dead-suicide_n_3179850.html

JuliaScurr · 08/11/2013 14:19

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/gideon-burrows/modern-fatherhood-is-a-myth_b_3343239.html

gives an overview of research - you know, actual facts 'n shit - about fathers and their commitment to exercising their rights

oh, my sides

Blistory · 08/11/2013 14:28

Don't patronise me Sigmund. I don't agree with your views, you don't agree with mine but the difference is, I don't feel the need to post on MRA sites telling them they're all wrong and persecuted.

How about a little bit of respect for the board on which you're posting and the posters who engage with you time and time again ?

SigmundFraude · 08/11/2013 14:35

Don't patronise me either. This is a parenting site, it's not Feministnet. Those facts are clear enough. To equate this site to an MRA site is plain wrong.

SigmundFraude · 08/11/2013 14:37

'How about a little bit of respect for the board on which you're posting and the posters who engage with you time and time again ?'

Respect should be earned, it's not an automatic right. I am shown precious little respect Blistory, and I'm sure you are aware of that.

slug · 08/11/2013 14:45

Oh dear how utterly predictable

SigmundFraude · 08/11/2013 14:52

If you like. Anything to avoid engaging eh?

Blistory · 08/11/2013 14:55

Aware of it ? No, you've been afforded every respect on here. Posters repeatedly engage with you time and time again even when the thread is simply a repeat of one we've had over and over again. Posters have backed off because they are aware that you play the 'ganged up' card when you've gone too far with your provocations. Posters don't attempt to provoke you even when you say you've read the thread but doggedly refuse to understand what is being said therein.

Do you know who soul destroying it is to read you dismiss some poster who has just posted about her rape or her experience of domestic violence with your usual refrain of 'but women do it too' or 'I fear for my sons' ?

Do you think threatening to use posters' experiences on your blog or encouraging MRAs merits respect ?

And for the record, I didn't blame men but heaven fucking forbid that you even attempt to understand my post.

SigmundFraude · 08/11/2013 15:11

Your above post was completely erroneous. All of it. I just don't have the energy to pick it apart, truthfully, except for the blog thing. I have not used posters experiences, or threatened to use posters experience's. I said characterize, as in fiction. Big difference.

You loftily assure me that I have been afforded every respect on 'your' part of MN. With a couple of exceptions, that isn't really true, is it? I'm tolerated at best, and only because it's not the regulars decision who posts here.

SigmundFraude · 08/11/2013 15:11

'And for the record, I didn't blame men but heaven fucking forbid that you even attempt to understand my post.'

Ah well, we're probably both guilty of that one.

Blistory · 08/11/2013 15:12

Again

you've read the thread but doggedly refuse to understand what is being said therein.

CaptChaos · 08/11/2013 16:02

Feminists didn't choose to set themselves in opposition to MRAs and given that feminism acknowledges that some men are also harmed by the way in which society operates, it wouldn't really make sense to do so.

I've never understood why a decent, caring man would need to join a men's rights movement. What rights do they honestly think they are lacking ? I honestly can't think of a single area where men are 'other' or are held back or punished simply because of their sex.

You want equal rights as parents ? Well, grow up, accept responsibility, take paternity leave, take the hit on the career and finances, be there for your babies and children, support them financially and emotionally, don't walk out, don't provide child support grudgingly, do it freely and willingly.

You want not to be accused of violence and rape ? Well, don't hit and don't rape. Simple. Don't be so offended that I'm afraid of you - look at why I'm afraid of you.

You want support centres for men and increased funding for male cancers ? Well, bloody well get off your arses and do something about it. Just because I donate to one cancer charity doesn't mean that the well has run dry. Stop seeing it as one or the other. You need different facilities for us so stop demanding access to ours and work our what specific support men need and provide it.

You want to abolish sexism ? Well, stop being sexist, stop thinking women's bodies are there for your pleasure, teach your sons that they don't have an entitlement to sex, call out sexism, support your wives, mothers, daughters, colleagues in not participating. Stop accusing them of being humourless harpies who constantly nag. Try actually doing the housework and stop expecting praise when you do.

You want other men to support you ? Well stop accusing them of being pussy whipped sissies and ask. You get a lot more help when you simply ask instead of attacking.

Stop blaming women, stop blaming full stop.

Recognise that a woman angry with the system isn't angry with you so stop being so offended because it really isn't about you, it's about a system that we're all part of. It's about women being beaten, being raped, being killed, being demeaned, being sidelined, every godamn day of our lives - stop to think that maybe, just maybe, it's okay for us to be pissed off about that. And that it's okay for us to want to change that.

^^ This.

This month is Movember, where men can grow a moustache to raise money and awareness for male cancers. It's a man only thing apparently my resplendent handlebar job doesn't count for an issue which only men face. How many feminists have come out and said that it's a bad thing? That women should be allowed to take part? That not letting women take part is sexist and evil and because of that, it shouldn't be allowed to happen anymore? You know, like a certain type of person does about race for life.

NiceTabard · 08/11/2013 16:13

Christ almighty I clicked that link of sigmund's. Closed it after the couple of paragraphs.

If that link is the "good" side of MRA then I dread to think what the bad side might entail.

Also what Blistory said, excellent post.

SigmundFraude · 08/11/2013 16:25

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

SigmundFraude · 08/11/2013 16:27

'How many feminists have come out and said that it's a bad thing? That women should be allowed to take part?'

I'm not going to say it, but sooooooooooooooooo tempted.

Blistory · 08/11/2013 16:31

Aaah, so you have a message for the masses that we don't get. How virtuous.

Me, I'm just here navel gazing and enjoying my shocking grammar and typos.

SigmundFraude · 08/11/2013 16:41

'www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/gideon-burrows/modern-fatherhood-is-a-myth_b_3343239.html

gives an overview of research - you know, actual facts 'n shit - about fathers and their commitment to exercising their rights

oh, my sides'

Yeah, the usual crap. Except that men prioritise work, women prioritise family life. Facts n shit? That article? Really? Well I guess it's not a lie if you believe it to be true I suppose.

Yet more rantings from a 'look, I'm an alright Jack bloke and I did it' point of view, who expects fawning female attention for it. Maybe he wants to talk to all the professional woman who jack their jobs for good after having children, and are more than happy for their DH's to foot the bill. I highly doubt it though.

NiceTabard · 08/11/2013 16:56

I closed it after this gem:

"When boys become college men, they enter a female-dominated environment that’s skeptical of their mere existence. Colleges are rife with romantic and sexual liaisons, which is risky for a male. If a woman regrets the sexual encounter, she can easily cry rape. Not only is the guy presumed guilty, he’s screwed if it gets as far as a college tribunal."

I am not going to read something that maintains that women and girls routinely "cry rape". The stats do not back it up, my experience in, you know, real life does not back it up.

The FACT is that if a woman says she has been raped (and many don't ever say it, and most never report it) then she has been raped.

Like I say, if that is the acceptable face of MRA, then then I dread to think what the rest is like.

NiceTabard · 08/11/2013 17:01

spence the reason that women posting in feminism / women's rights on MN don't like MRAs is that they have unacceptable views of women as venal, selfish creatures who enjoy destroying males at the wave of a hand, and that society & the courts support them in this.

SigmundFraude · 08/11/2013 17:05

Maybe you should have clicked the link within that paragraph:

"By JUDITH E. GROSSMAN
Updated April 16, 2013 7:41 p.m. ET
I am a feminist. I have marched at the barricades, subscribed to Ms. magazine, and knocked on many a door in support of progressive candidates committed to women's rights. Until a month ago, I would have expressed unqualified support for Title IX and for the Violence Against Women Act.

But that was before my son, a senior at a small liberal-arts college in New England, was charged—by an ex-girlfriend—with alleged acts of "nonconsensual sex" that supposedly occurred during the course of their relationship a few years earlier."........................

complete article that you won't read 'cos 'La la la, I can't hear you' etc

SigmundFraude · 08/11/2013 17:06

'spence the reason that women posting in feminism / women's rights on MN don't like MRAs is that they have unacceptable views of women as venal, selfish creatures who enjoy destroying males at the wave of a hand, and that society & the courts support them in this.'

Now tell him/her the truth....

NiceTabard · 08/11/2013 17:15
Confused

Is the truth too tricky for you?

I skimmed the article.

Why weren't the police involved?
How does his mother know for a fact he didn't do it?
Have you heard of stubenville?

Questions are rhetorical BTW, don't need more links to cases where mothers think their son didn't do it.

Incidentally, do you think men and children lie about being raped as well, or is this just a female vice?

SigmundFraude · 08/11/2013 17:18

'Incidentally, do you think men and children lie about being raped as well, or is this just a female vice?'

What the hell is that supposed to mean? If someone is proven to be lying, then it doesn't really matter who it is.

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