The Feminist Pub is Open - Chat, Rant, or pull up a chair here!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Please come along, draw up a stool, and have a good chat about whatever you fancy - as serious or as trivial as you like.

For starters, I have a half-pint of lemonade. What can I get anyone?

Rebecca has just posted this:
"Thanks for flagging and we're sorry you are all so cross about this.

We tend to agree, AF is a great and well loved poster on MN and we'd love to keep her around.

The problem that we have is, and she has mailed in to us acknowledging this, we have to apply our guidelines fairly to everyone.

AF has had many warnings from us in the past, several mails and there comes a point when we have to take action or the guidelines become totally pointless.

We will be mailing AF back shortly and having the conversation with her directly. We do not want to ban her for good but as we have very few roooles, we do ask posters to stick by them."

.

rooooles huh.

But what did she actually do this time?

Apparently got annoyed at some MRA baiting her.

Hope she's back soon.

So often everyone politely entertains goading posters and after a few pages of to and fro discussion she appears and calls bull shit. It's so often needed and she does it so eloquently.

There sure has been a sustained attack on FWR and relationships very recently - by the creepier MRA type. Sounds like it's not MRA permanent ban though?

:(

I need to read FWR more often, it's slipped off my radar a bit.

Not only am I annoyed with AF's banning, I've just realised the DC's kids dental floss from Boots comes in either pink or blue.

Really, meglet? FFS!

Time for bed. Night all.

See, I am more and more convinced that as a society we punish the person who retaliates in a situation of conflict, rather than expending the energy by seeking out the initiator. So often we tell kids that 'they started it' isn't justification for retaliation, or that they should get help bit hit back. But you know what, that just gives the bullies an opening where they know they can goad and get away with it Scott free.

I am starting to come to the conclusion that as soon as someone starts to goad in any way, then it is perfectly right to just shut them down and cut them off. Then we don't need to be polite to them. A few innocent people might have their feelings hurt with an abrupt response, but presumably they will learn to phrase questions more appropriately and the goady fuckers will just fuck off.

And yes to whoever asked, it appears that dad's teacher thinks that as the mother it is my job to do all the parenting. Now I work in the same school so the majority of it does end up being me, but I do work full time, so dh sometimes drives across town and does some hands on parenting while I work. How I am meant to be giving parent teacher conferences at the same time as being a parent I am not sure. But obviously having a vagina makes it my job to do that.

Wow...you go away for a few days and then...just wow.

Sharing an anecdote-at the library with DD today, a dad and his son were in the children's area, playing/reading etc.

A girl, maybe 10, asked the dad where his wife was, if the llittle boy had a mother, and why wasn't she with him.

He handled himself well, fwiw. And I don't really know if the girl was being smart or genuinely curious, but it made me wonder when the hell it'll be "normal" for fathers to, yknow, spend time with their children

This site will be a poorer place without AnyFucker, her wisdom and empathy is legendary. I don't know how many people she's helped get out of shit situations, and I understand the biting back at goady fuckers, I've done that too and been deleted. I'm lucky though, unlike her I'm pretty anonymous, I haven't had the amount of shit flung at me as she has.

She'll be back. And I look forward to reading her posts again. I think heron nonsense approach to relationship advice is very refreshing.
It's an interesting point you make kickass about whether to target punishment towards the agent provocateur rather than the person who retaliates. I have seen many posts on MN that are so goady as to be considered (IMHO) offensive but don't meet the criteria for deletion, when I feel they should.
The trouble is that the definition of provocation is subjective.
And I guess We, as civilised ppl should be able to "walk away" from goading.
With particular reference to this FWR board, I feel the need to mention that plenty of male aggressors have tried the defence of being provoked into violent behaviour by a "nagging wife" for example.

I do sympathise. I've had deletions for biting back. It's hard sometimes.

I somehow missed this last night. Not sure how.

I'm quite cross. To ignore trolls/MRAs and simply pretend they're not upsetting people would require incredible patience, but it'd also be really stupid. I think it's unfair to ban her without sorting out the trolls, TBH. I known MNHQ had fun with the penis beaker thread and increasingly tend not to delete troll threads when they judge that they're funny or have good advice on them - but I think they need to crack down.

She was amazing to me when I was at the end of my tether with DH and just couldn't see what to do. Actually she's been constantly amazing, but that's the one that sticks in mind.

It's only for a week, LRD, though that wasn't clear last night.

I'm glad it's only for a week.

I'm just angry with the situation as a whole.

Good post, kickass.

I can't comment on AF specifically, especially since I didn't see what she said.

But on the wider topic of provocation, at a feminist level provocation is something I have struggled with massively given its usage in domestic violence cases.

As has been pointed out "I was provoked" is often used as a defence by violent men. In an 'everyday' sense it is used by domestic abusers to say, for example, "She nagged me, so I thumped her. I was provoked". In law, it has been even more shocking. Provocation was often a mitigating factor in male murders (I discovered she was having an affair, so I strangled her) but rarely successful for women (He beat me for 20 years and one day I stabbed him in his sleep) as so often the women couldn't show that she responded immediately and in the heat of the moment to the provocation - for the obvious reason that she was physically weaker.

I do, of course, understand that responding to provocation online by calling a twat a twat isn't the same thing. But I still find it difficult to say that immediate lashing out is a mitigating factor.

By the way, I do agree with Kick - you can normally shut down and cut off pretty bluntly whilst staying the right side of deletion though. And of course then your post stands, rather than it looking like the poor MRA was picked on so unfairly that the attacks had to be deleted...

penguins you put that much better than I.
I am intrigued though as to what happened.
And I hope she comes back.

I don't think I did, I was just following up your point.

I would like to know what happened. I think they thing is, if you hold your temper you can often be very direct without actually being 'deletion rude' IYSWIM. I know how hard that can be.

I know what you mean, penguins - and I didn't see what was deleted either - but in the wider context, I don't think it is the same.

If you lash out at someone, you hurt them. That is the point. It's not ok, because you shouldn't hurt them.

If you call a troll and it turns out to be a troll, you still get rapped over the knuckles for calling it, even if that alerts people who are getting upset that perhaps all is not as it seems.

If you challenge an MRA for saying vile things, that MRA may well eventually get banned - but you still get ticked off.

In real life, there is absolutely no rule saying you must not say 'I think you are lying'. Is there?

Nor is it banned to say 'fuck off, your views are offensive'.

So it is not remotely comparable to the 'I was provoked' defence for violence.

The issue is that these are slightly artificial rules, which MN (sensibly) made so we can all interact quite nicely online. And I think they work well about 90% of the time - but they can only work if MNHQ can keep more or less on top of the trolls/MRAs in the first place. And they try, btu I don't think they manage it.

It's hard to be so controlled all the time - they play on te fact that we all have a snapping point.

Someone said yesterday that she is named on particular sites. If so, it looks like she was targetted.

Of course the fact that reg MNers have reported her too on occasion is allowing people to let the 'targetters' off the hook. You can see there are two lots there, the ordinary decent MNer who clashed and just doesn't like her - fair enough - and the nasty little gleeful type gloating away.

Fair point.