The Feminist Pub is Open - Chat, Rant, or pull up a chair here!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Please come along, draw up a stool, and have a good chat about whatever you fancy - as serious or as trivial as you like.

For starters, I have a half-pint of lemonade. What can I get anyone?

I agree, sal. I also think it's actually not that effective.

In those never-ending debates about rape, for example, here's how it goes:

MRA1: Well, is it really serious rape when they're both really drunk and the woman has invited him home? She surely doesn't really mind. Come on!'

Poster like me: That is digusting. Yes it is rape. Here is a link to MN's own list of rape myths.

[many hundreds of posts later, including tearful rape survivors and increasingly unpleasant posts from MRA]

AF: [something very strong, breaking guidelines and calling a spade a spade]

[sound of relieved posters thinking, thank goodness, I felt awful.]

[several dozen posts later]

MNHQ: Hi, this thread was reported two days ago and we'd just like to link to our rape myths list!

[AF's post is deleted]

Two days later - MRA OP is banned.

*

See, you can post like me, and do the 'This is disgusting' line, and keep your temper (ish, cos I do sometimes lose it but on the whole I rarely get deleted). But it's actually not as effective when someone is posting something really profoundly misogynistic. And the MRA then gets banned. So it is hard to see who wins, really? The MRA has done what he set out to do quite comfortably, knowing there will usually be plenty of time before HQ gets onto him. AF will get another black mark, but HQ will subsequently accept that the poster was dodgy.

And the whole episode reinforces the idea that it's worse to attack rape myths (or whatever it happens to be) than to express them maliciously.

Oh, I think there can be little doubt that AF has been targeted.
From that point of view a NC would maybe allow her to continue her support (she'd be SO recognisable by style and sense anyway ) without setting off alarm bells on other sites whenever she posts?

I am glad to hear her 'ban' is for a week and not longterm.

However, I do think this is about a bigger issue than 'just' AF (much as I lufs her even when I disagree with her) - it's about what values this site supports IMO.

Re provocation: I agree that it is quite dangerous allowing 'provocation' as an excuse for the inexcusable (there is usually 2 children told off in this house... and I reward 'walking away' quite heavily), but I think the Talk Guidelines have become a bit wussy.
I think "Your opinions are offensive" should be allowed. Not the "Fuck off" maybe. Also "I think you are lying" seems perfectly civil to me - but ought to be followed up by pressing the report button.

Personally, I am quite good at walking away and I wish a lot of trolls and provocateurs wouldn't be fed quite so much. The only time my feelings have been hurt on MN was when I felt stupid for having been sucked in by a troll's story, but no real harm was done. I recognise that I come from quite a strong place though and shudder to think what this kind of thing can do to people living with abuse of mental health problems.
I think it is very, very dangerous to consider any online site as 'safe' - we could all be hairy truckers after all. At the same time I know how valuable online support can be for people who have nobody in RL so I try v hard not to post anything that I would not say out loud in RL and have 'kind' as my default position (unless posting on sweaty threads - I like a bit of recreational swearing ).
IMVHO people should be turfed off for being unkind, I really do.
It's one thing to say "I really don't like your baby name" and quite another to say "You must be fucking stupid to inflict that name on your poor child". For instance.

Sorry for the essay this early in the morning...

Crosspost, LRD.

I think in your example the OP should have been reported. Straight off.
I probably would not bother posting more than once on a thread like that.

Oh, but it would have been reported in my example.

But the site is very big, and HQ respond slowly. That's the point. They are often, unfortunately, a very long way behind.

It's relatively easy to ignore a troll saying something like 'oooh, I loves poo, so I does, talk to me about pants'. Less easy to ignore a troll posing as a concerned individual who is pulling in vulnerable posters by discussing rape, or bereavement, or their serious illness.

I know MNHQ have a big job, but I think their system only worked when the site was small enough they could get onto a thread and zap it fast.

I actually think if someone posts rape myths, they should be deleted. Yes, some people post them in ignorance, but it would send a message. Just as people are deleted for posting racist slurs even if they happen not to realize that 'you filthy tinker' is one. (excuse the example; recent events).

Yes, you're right - zapping is not fast enough.
What I ment with your example was to not wait until AF got reported, but to just straight off go for the OP. In an attempt to save time.

What offends people can be so variable though: I was on the 'integration' thread recently (you need to know that I am a Bloody Forriner in the UK) and some British people objected to the phrase 'Brit' (as in "my DH is a Brit"), some others, also British, did not mind at all.
I was : I am happy not to use a phrase that offends others, but there simply was no consensus, and I'd be a bit miffed if something like that was deleted.

It is such a judgement call and I agree that generally MNHQ do a good job, but the sites has become too large or staff too few IYKWIM.

Yeah, but people do.

I've reported a thread after three posts and seen it go that way.

I get what you're saying, and I get that it is complex. I just think it's gone far too far.

Yes, it has

So far, I have reported 2 threads today - that's unheard of for me...

Gosh this is all awful isn't it?

A part of me does feel that MNHQ should be able to get to rape myth posts quicker....

but a big part of me worries about the royalty affect.

MNHQ have admitted that AF is given far FAR more 'chances' than an unknown posting attacks....is that really okay?

I don't think it would be ok, but I think what they are aware of - and they have said this quite a lot in the past - is that MN is self-moderated, so when someone is reported, it's not an unbiased expression of how they post.

They know AF gets targeted and therefore reported more often.

For an 'unknown' poster to get reported a huge amount, they have to be pretty offensive or exceptionally unlucky. For AF, she just has to run into the MRAs who wander around the internet talking about how they plan to set her up.

hmmm I hadn't thought of it that way around....I assumed that unknowns would get more reporting because people will let royalty get away with stuff....

In fact I know that happens too.

But yes there must be both types of selection bias present.

I think I'm quite good at walking away. There are a few posters who get on my nerves a lot (not here ), and I just stop posting when they turn up, because it is boring to hear the same old stuff.

As for MRA I stop reading ... In some ways MRAs are easier to cope with than many women who appear to collude in their own oppression...

Yes MNHQ need more moderators so they can delete quicker. Some Trolls are easy to ignore. But when someone is posting stuff justifying rape for example, you can't leave that unchallenged. To do so sends a message to lurkers that who don't realise it is a troll, that most wome here agree or are not bothered by the statement.

Copper - Agree about women who collude in their own oppression. But all you can do is point out what they are doing. The rest is up to them.

And isn't it a little harsh to talk about women colluding in their own oppression. Abuse within a relationship, including emotional abuse, can be complex, and not surprising if women try a variety of strategies in an attempt to make living with it bearable for themselves and their DC.

Tell me more about what you would see as colluding in their own oppression ?

There is a poster on FWR (and I think we'll all know who) who claims to be the mother of 2 sons and turns up on all the 'obvious' threads. S/he has admitted she comes here to troll from that mra website, she has said she writes blogs about posters here and reports back to the mra's- and if that's not goady fuckery, and 'here to inflame' -and worthy of a ban- then I don't know what is.

I said on another thread last night that after the launch of WBY, MN told us they would delete rape myths posted on here. HQ were pretty good at banning the trolls at that point, a lot were got rid of, I seem to remember- but somehow, over time this seems to have been commuted to 'well, if they're posted in genuine ignorance, we'll let them stand'. I've reported these to be told 'yes, some people have raped myths ingrained...' - well, delete them, then! They're certainly 'not in the spirit' of WBY.

I have seen a number of threads recently of the 'so upset' or even 'was I raped?' variety where regular posters pile in to tell her it wasn't rape (because she took her own trousers off or whatever) - I'm just too exhausted to enter the pile in tbh.

Btw - I find HQ very on-the-ball at deleting previously banned users now - those (very obvious) threads often go quite quickly, depending on the time of day.

But the newcomers I've probably reported most of the mra goaders, some several times - but they remain...

...and I know I'm rubbish at ignoring them - must try harder

I don't know who you are talking about Sabrina. But it is shocking that they are still here. And I haven't seen those threads. That just makes me angry.

Juggling - Actually colluding is the wrong word. But there are women who argue for rape myths, or even what could she expect.

YY, that's true ice. Both kinds of bias.

I do think sometimes though women who express right wing views are jumped on too quickly and called trolls. It is a balancing act.

My post about "collusion" is not about abuse - I'm thinking more of people appearing to be happy to propagate gender stereotype and therefore perpetuating inequality. Sorry if that came out wrong. I do realise that things are not always as simple as they look ...

I'm thinking of "normal" situations, where you talk to people (I'm reducing that because it's driving me mad) and people will say "oh my sons would never listen to a woman" (true eg), "oh it's amazing your son can sit still for 5 minutes" (true eg), "oh my DH is useless at that - he's a man" (true eg) and so on. Nothing is ever "serious" but everything adds up and you go mad and decide never ever to talk to anyone ever again ...

Again, I know that things are not as simple as they look. It just wears you down ...

Thanks for clarifying the context LordCopper

And people not seeing that things are not as simple as they look and simply holding on to "men and women are different, aren't they" and therefore round and round we go again ...

Yes it does wear you down. There was a thread here about a DP being an idiot, and there were a couple of posters who kept saying that it wasnt his fault as men's brains work differently to women's brains.

Asks for half of finest bitter, to wash away the unpleasant taste left by the goady f* on the porn thread - I think we know who I mean (the "I'm so cool, just encouraging people to push the boundaries of what's sexually ok one"). Just reported him/her/it ('it': since one of the comments refers to bestiality, I'm leaving my options open as to quite what species we're dealing with here) on the grounds of the sum total of posts adds up to being goady/trolling even if individual ones stay just within the letter of the law. Watch this space to see what if anything is done.