OK. Please can we talk about women raping men?

[curlew]

It's a key part of the MRA agenda. Some MRA even say that men are as often victims of rape by women as women are of rape by men.

I absolutely agree that sex should always be consensual,and if a man has been forced, by either physical or psychological means into sex, then he has been raped and deserved of course to be taken seriously, and for the perpetrator to be charged and ,nif found guilty, convicted. And I know that an erection is a physiological response, and does not necessarily mean that a man actually wants to have sex.

But the MRA are full of stories of men waking up after falling asleep drunk at parties to find women on top of them. And vqriations on th them of being forced to penetrate against their will. And, it might just be my misandry showing, but really? Does this happen a lot? Is it a really serious problem that needs to be addressed, and have equivilant resources given to it?

That particular article wasn't one that I was in agreement with. In general though, most of his articles are thought-provoking. He is not a hateful misogynist.

Being a lovely guy in any other respect does not cancel out the hate and misogyny in this article. Only a hateful misogynist can write an article expressing hate and misogyny.

Well it's interesting you said that Flora, as I was told by a feminist that I should overlook one or two of the hate filled ratings of Dworkin and consider her body of work as a whole. But there you are.

I don't much care what you think of Dworkin and I didn't say he might not have something non-hateful and possibly interesting to say even though he is a hateful misogynist. None of that changes that he is clearly a hateful misogynist.

Flora Paul Elam is one of the major players in the MRA movement, especially on the AVfM site. He is nothing if not consistent in his views on women, feminists and the whole false accusation thing. A trawl through his blog posts reveals a man who truly hates women to the depths of his soul, or fears them. One of the two.

His deeply held belief that all women make up all accusations of rape and his endless victim blaming must make very uncomfortable reading for men who are victims of rape or sexual assault, despite how he 'champions' these men.

The words he wrote in that article seem to have upset some of his ardent supporters given the comments left on it by them, and yet he defends his position repeatedly. His vitriol about rape victims and how they all deserve it is probably one of the most offensive things I've seen written on the internet.

'His deeply held belief that all women make up all accusations of rape'

He never said that all women make up all accusations of rape. That's a lie.

There are 100's of articles on A Voice For Men, not only written by P.E, plenty are written by women, including GirlWritesWhat, it is the No.1 MRA site globally with over 5 1/2 million visits clocked up, so it can't be that offensive, can it?

Then please find me an article where Paul Elam defends women who are victims of rape. Or suggests that women who accuse men of rape are telling the truth. Or in fact has anything nice, complimentary or even handed to say about women.

I do understand Sigmund that you are a female MRA, I even understand your explanation for why you are an MRA, but please don't try and excuse Elam's views as anything other than those he blogs. You will be fighting a losing battle, and make yourself look deranged/not very bright.

"it is the No.1 MRA site globally with over 5 1/2 million visits clocked up, so it can't be that offensive, can it?"

eh? since when was offensiveness determined by page hits?

I'm not trying to excuse anything, and I'm sure Paul Elam wouldn't thank me for it anyway. All I am saying, is that you cannot take that one article highlighted and say that it is representative of his views as a whole. That doesn't make me deranged or anything else.

Paul Elam has given many men a lifeline, and a voice. Having said that, there are many other writers, men and women, on AVFM now, so there is diversity there.

'Paul Elam has given many men a lifeline, and a voice.'

And these are the views that are being expressed. That is scary shit.

I can't be bothered to explain. You will see whatever you want to see, don't we all.

New name change, my actual name.

Oh if only you truly couldn't be bothered.

but you keep coming back.

Sorry. It must really gall you that in RL people can voice opinions that don't tally with yours, however they can't be moderated or banned, and if you reported them you'd look a little odd.

'the MRA view'

Paul Elam is an MRA, he is not the MRA. That's a little like saying Sheila Jeffries is the default feminist, representative of feminist thought.

Relax Sam no one's reporting you. Calm down. It's not news to us that hateful misogynists exist, you are not some sort of brave iconoclast for pointing that out. Nothing special. Except perhaps as an uncommon example of a Good Woman at an MRA meet.

I don't believe that Paul Elam is a hateful misogynist at all, I said I didn't agree with this particular article, which is fair enough I think.

I never claimed to be special or unique either. I'm not.

Haven't got time to comment right now, but glancing through the thread it appears Sigmund/Sam really got her knickers in a twist with the links to Paul Elam's hateful misogyny.

MRA pissed, my work here is done.

Urgh, I'm glad I stopped following this thread.

I came back to share today's Buzzfeed from Project Unbreakable (link on page.)
Trigger warning. I found it extremely upsetting/moving, and I'm not a man who has been raped.

Ritamin, I'm sorry you were raped and subsequently abused. I'm sorry you were taunted about it by others. I'm sorry you've been disbelieved. Thank you for telling your story.

I wrote the following on Just this subject more than a Year ago (5th October 2012)? I will reproduce it in speechmarks in a minute but All I put is still relevant & taking me a Loooooong time to recover - It's probably even More relevant now than it was then to me & my life as it's taken me this long to come around to the idea of what happened to me & Just What my Evil Incarnate Rather Nasty ex-partner did to me but suffice to say? Yes Men most certainly Can be raped (in terms of having their Choice as to whether to partake in sexual intercourse removed which is the Real crime of Rape whatever sex is perpetrating & whichever one is suffering from it?)

As you may have guessed from my passionate advocacy of the fact that women can (& Do!!) rape men as men so often do them? I was in actual fact 'raped' & repeatedly so over a period of the 6 years me & her were together & though she often used more in the terms of threats mixed with physical force (which she could do not because she was stronger or more physically powerful than me but because I have a weakness due to an old -8 years ago now?- operation in a particular part of my face that means If I am hit in the wrong place & by the wrong (i.e. to strong?) strength of punch/attack, I can & probably Will die or be injured to the point of eventual death?

Anyway? Here's my story - I hope it opens a few eyes not just to the Hell I had to live through back then but to something that given my own experience & the sheer amount of time, walls & barriers (In my Own head more than anything else?) that I had to break down to voice what was done to me in public? And which I suspect many men in this position may also suffer from? Well I also hope it opens a few peoples' eyes to something that is I suspect if not as common as Male on Female Rape? Then something (Female on Male Rape?) Which is certainly IMO? Rather more common than many may actually think? Difference is it's just nearly Never spoken of by many men as I can testify? That doesn't mean it Does Not Happen? Indeed quite the opposite may be true but in the end with this problem & the issue of it Having to be confronted? I suspect that as with all else? Time will tell - Sooner or later? Time will tell..........

Will include my story in my next post else this one? Will probably end up Far To Large on it's own? Hope no-one minds........

Here's What happened to me as I wrote it on Mumsnet slightly more than a year ago:

"Yes in short; If you define rape as it should be defined (equally for both sexes) in terms of control & not physical features of our bodies (which IMO is how English law gets around admitting Men can be & are raped by women for reasons I know not) being the defining issue in rape? Then it becomes an issue whereby the rapist is taking something from their victim (control of their body) & having sexual intercourse with them without their consent? I'd say that pretty much is rape whatever sex the victim is.

More to the point? I speak with knowledge on this as thinking back over the 6 years of hell the evil sorceress my ex'-fiancee put me through? There was more than one occasion when she raped me by that definition. A number of times I 'interacted' (read had sex) with her in bed as she threatened to hit me/tell lies about me to her family re' us arguing & a couple of others? I got tired/felt wrong & asked her to stop & she didn't - I let her finish until we both you know.....But after? I felt tired, worn-out, uncomfortable & a physical wreck.

That? Was nothing like I normally did with her.......... Sorry not easy talking about this - I've never written it before as a man Also? I woke up once & she was initiating sex with me & hadn't asked me - That night of all nights? I'd just been getting over being ill so she knew I was in no state for sex but went ahead anyway. In truth? I never really trusted or enjoyed sex with her after the first such of those incidents never mind the others but we grew into a 'rut' together & eventually she stopped doing that when I told her how it was turning me off her & I wanted some say In what I did/didn't do with her - I guess I never thought of it as what I'm calling it now but looking back? These instances probably were Rape as I had no control in what I did in/during & certainly by the end of them all.

As I said? I never wanted to call those instances what they now clearly were but they were rape IMO in all but name under English law anyway. Not just that either - there were many, many other issues in our relationship & I hope to God they've not damaged our DS (whose now 3 & the light of our lives) going forward -he heard us argue often (about money usually), she was EA & committed DV against me knowing I'd not strike back & was (am) in a physical state due to an op' that nearly killed me 7 years back as well & she told (& tells) so many lies & has issues with who she trusts? It just became impossible to live with her in the end. Not sorry it's ended except for not seeing my little boy regularly now but that's another (longer) story for another time.............

In answer to the OP though & the question posed? YANBU - Men can be raped by women as it is just as possible for them to take our control away about whether we have sex sometimes - maybe not as often as men can (& do I know; I've read a lot of the accounts on here & they're sick at times - I'm often ashamed to be a man at times in truth ) with women but the issue of female on male rape? Does exist & it does go on - I know for certain - it's happened to me more than 7 times; Since I speak from bitter & painful experience? The overall answer is yes.

My dark secret is out now - I've written it And I never not ever thought I'd do that. I hope all such rape by anyone on anyone stops soon - it's a horrible thing to describe & still worse to experience; And that's something? I thought I'd never write as I was never going to tell a single soul about this - Feels odd having written it like this but 'tis the effect of MN? I think? Couldn't hide it any longer & just everything came out at a flood - sorry if my experiences or describing them upsets anyone? Is what happened to me was all; I just hope this horrid crime ends soon or is wiped out. We can but hope I guess..............

NB And when I said "She threatened to hit me/tell lies about me to her family re' us arguing & a couple of others? I Actually meant something rather more specific - She threatened at least Twice? To tell her family that I had R*d Her? I didn't want to say that as it was bad enough that this was precisely what she'd done to me in the end but it's true? She also threatened to tell them that I'd coerced her with violence, threatened to take our son from her permanently?

This BTW? Is something that eventually happened after a court case lasting 3 years & her taking him away After we'd made an agreement at court with a judge that she kept for a month & then broke - Fleeing 400 miles away with him & igniting the Judge into a nuclear Explosion of temper the likes of which I've rarely seen inside a court & certainly Never seen aimed at a woman until then? To say he was enraged by her lack of faith in his word & the agreement we'd made & the way she broke it so flippantly? Well that's an understatement to say the least & it was her taking our son like that & in the words of the Boy's Social Worker? "Putting Her Own Needs above that of Her Child? That eventually paved the way for me to gain Permanent Residence & Full Custody of him where he now lives & is so much happier & settled just over one year Later? I hope that long may that continue.....

Anyhow As I said a year ago? The other 2 ways beside making threats of What she'd say to her family about me? Was either waiting until I was nearly asleep & then starting & Knowing that I'd not resist &/or ignoring me until she was finished & using whatever physical strength she needed (she was a big girl who used to play rugby & had a hard punch? She used to batter the hell out of me & hit me with all sorts - Tons of Domestic Violence? As well) to restrain & keep me there until she'd finished often with threats from her of hitting me in the Exact spot on my jaw that could kill me if hit wrong?

She either did the two above Or was also fond of waiting until I was actually asleep & when I woke up? Either again forcing me physically to stay there & finish Again with threats of hitting me in my vulnerable jaw spot or convincing me that I'd started willingly by saying "oh you agreed/you wanted this" etc so I remained quiet & complied even when I Knew I didn't want it?

Either way & whatever method she used? All Three were despicable & Just Wrong & I would say the same if a man had done this to a woman (although I know they often only use strength due to their advantage in that area?) I still think that This sort of blackmail is just as bad believe me? (And weaker men Do use similar tactics from time to time or so I've heard from a few ladies I've known down the years regarding the odd really bad bloke they've come across)

Whatever happened as I said & still believe? The Real Crime & the one that Truly defines you as having been raped whatever sex you or your attacker were IMO? Is that they All without fail? Removed my ability to have a Choice In whether I had sex or not? That in truth is what was & always will be wrong & something no-one man or woman should ever be forced to endure. I hope it would change & this sort of abuse by people against vulnerable others would end but with the world the nasty way it is in many ways? I suspect it may not change anytime soon.....................

thank you for sharing, redline. how did you eventually manage to escape from your abuser?

Sorry I haven't replied on here for Ages & Ages payhisdebt? I Promise I Will answer your question re' How I escaped the Creatur 'Woman' that Did all that horrible stuff to me in full & address the whole situation properly soon when I have time but to answer it in short for now as to How I escaped her?

In short? I didn't - I eventually Made Her leave me? As to how? Simple? I broke her heart? Deliberately........ Yes it's Simple? And no doubt probably will be seen as a little cold some of you Ladies will probably think? And you'd be right but it was that or........Me Feeling for many years more than the 6 I actually did waste nearly completely (barring always of course our son?) with her?

Anyhow? She was actually the one who came to discuss us gettin back together a 3rd time that night she left me forever way back in February 2012? Suffice to say her pretence lasted only enough time for her to get through my front door into our (Me & My Son's now?) Home? After that? I got the Full Bloody Barrage from her? I could Feel the poison, venom & sheer hatred of me rolling Off of her in waves like dark, choking, almost tangible clouds? The very Air in our living room seemed to change As she spoke? And she didn't hold back either? As I said? I soon got absolutely F**king Bombarded by her about everything to Do with me practically?

She ranted & raved on about how I was an embarrassment, a waste of space, a disgrace, Not my son's Dad possibly (look at the two of us together & you'll See that little insult for the complete & utter Trash it was!! The Phrase 'Mini-me'? Really does not do the two of us justice? He's my double in All Bar Age? ); She carried on her crap & venom with stuff about How my son would forget me & (Most Hurtful of all?) Why didn't I just go Back to the hospital that gave me the operation that changed everything in my life in 2005 (& damn near ended it!! )? Why Didn't I go back, complete the job & just Die she said? The world would apparently be better off without me & my son would soon forget me she continued?

Anyway after that? I was already falling in love with a woman (soon to be my next Girlfriend & first after She had finally gone?) I Used something about that to break my Boy's mum's heart deliberately then? I'd just had enough & wanted her gone before you ask why I did this? I Knew My boy couldn't live with all this either not to mention being plain exhausted & battered myself (in body, heart & mind? from All the abuse of every sort?) After I did this to her? She showed me in a reaction she Tried so hard to hide just How much I'd hurt her? And then? She was gone - that was 2 & a bit years ago & 6 more of our Full relationship stood behind us by then? I still haven't recovered from the (Mental & Emotional Mainly?) Damage she did to me up to & including that night?

In truth? I don't know If I ever will? I Do know One thing though? Had she somehow worked it out with me & Stayed? One of us (probably me given just How & Evil bad she got towards the Very End with me?) Would Not be here now & I mean every word of that? I'm just glad she's gone now & I can have my life back? I'm rebuilding it with a new woman now & my son by my side until he's grown it? I'm not perfect but compared to what I Was stuck in with Her? I'm in As perfect a place as my life Will Ever Get now? And Long May that continue..........

Sorry this was long? It's actually the Short Version of what went on around Her Leaving & Why? I'll post the rest of the details another time? Suffice to say one thing though before I finish all this for now? I don't normally ever get bad enough about someone to Feel like this? But I really Do Hate Her for All she's done & for trying to drag our son into it all as well? Further to all that? I actually lost a child with the above mentioned next GF as well in the short 11 months we were together? And the Ex/My Boy's Mum Evil Witch Eventually managed (partly due to How I broke her heart in February 2012?) to eventually completely destroy (or cause the collapse of?) that entire relationship 2 days before Christmas 2012?

She did that in addition to ruining as well? 2 More of My relationships I've had Since Leaving her meaning she's ruined 3 of the 5 relationships I've been in Since leaving her which is more than Half? I'm with my 6th GF since Leaving her now & have been on & off since Start of December 2013 but we've been in a Full Relationship since New Year's Day? Suffice to say? My ex' will know Nothing about this one if I have anything to do with it? And I Fully intend to have plenty to do with it? And then some..............

Anyway all the crap from ex' after we Finally Split for good? Then soon led To My Ex' Girlfriend's Miscarriage? Something I will Never? Not Ever forgive my Boy's mum for & easily The Main reason Why I Truly Hate Her so much now? That anniversary (04-01-13 was when it happened?) was a few weeks ago as well so I've Not been coping great recently? Anyhow? I'm Sorry for the long wait & hope you & the other Lovely Ladies & Good Gents (There Are a few of us I know?) on here All Had Fantastic Christmases in the Holiday just gone on & Wonderful New Years to? Speak Again Soon payhisrent? Or you can inbox me if you like? Keep Well Everyone & I'll write again soon......

NB Thank You for All the support, understanding, Help & advice I've received on here? Both during The Very Worst Year of my life (2012) when I didn't see my boy for a very long time & nearly lost our home to? And all the times since? It means a lot & I'll Never Forget it or be able to put into words just How Very, Very Grateful I've been for all that I've gotten from Mumsnet Since I joined here & needed Help?