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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

OK. Please can we talk about women raping men?

337 replies

curlew · 04/09/2013 10:53

It's a key part of the MRA agenda. Some MRA even say that men are as often victims of rape by women as women are of rape by men.

I absolutely agree that sex should always be consensual,and if a man has been forced, by either physical or psychological means into sex, then he has been raped and deserved of course to be taken seriously, and for the perpetrator to be charged and ,nif found guilty, convicted. And I know that an erection is a physiological response, and does not necessarily mean that a man actually wants to have sex.

But the MRA are full of stories of men waking up after falling asleep drunk at parties to find women on top of them. And vqriations on th them of being forced to penetrate against their will. And, it might just be my misandry showing, but really? Does this happen a lot? Is it a really serious problem that needs to be addressed, and have equivilant resources given to it?

OP posts:
man4live · 23/01/2014 05:57

In my experience this is relatively common. I don't think the women involved see anything wrong with it even though they would naturally be horrified were it done to them.

FloraFox · 23/01/2014 06:46

It's very simple. Women cannot rape men. Anything otherwise is an MRA fantasy.

Redline · 25/01/2014 15:48

Not true FloraFox & bein one of those (relatively) rare men who it Has happened to whose now Spoken about it & revealed just what was done to me 7 Times? Well I can tell you now that firstly I believe that UK Law is the one that has what is defined as the crime of Rape? Wrong & incomplete?

I say this for one Very Big Reason FloraFox? That being as English Law in respect of Rape? Well, it Only Ever (& Wrongly?) focuses on the Physical threat & differences between Men & Women that Means the vast majority of Rapes are done To women By Us Men & they are wrong yes? However there is another type of Rape to? One we rarely hear about as it's not just one that weaker men can & do use on women? It's one that women Can & Do carry out on men? One that I myself have had used on me at least 7 times by my ex'? It's a type of rape where the Consent of the victim is taken away by a mixture of physical force & threats/blackmail to Force them to comply or shut them up If they wake up with something happening to them?

I'm sorry but That is what was done to me & It Was Damn Well a form of Rape? It was done at least 7 times to me at the hands of the -horrific creatu-- My evil cow of an ex? I feel Very, Very Strongly Indeed about all this & kept it quiet for years before breaking down in tears after talkin to my Junior Barrister (a woman?) a couple of years ago in the case over my son while in a Court Side Room? I didn't hug, hold hands with or even Touch? Never Mind Want to be with or touch intimately with a woman for nearly 2 years because of all this? It completely screwed my head & emotions up? Wrecked me Mentally & left me often cryin for No reason or so it seemed? As one final blow? It then left me needing Counselling from a female counsellor now to help me get my head around it & understand & Try to move on from it all?

In addition to an operation that left me on painkillers nearly as strong as morphine for My Entire Life & with steel plates in my face that cause me awful headaches? Not to mention trouble walkin after tearing ankle ligaments & having terrible nosebleeds From that operation (which went Very wrong?) waay back in 2005? Well suffice to say what that dark evil thing Bch Did to me? Destroyed me for a while I'm not afraid to say? It also damaged me very, very deeply & then I read here you goin & putting that Women Cannot Rape Men as a Fact & implying that believing Otherwise? Is nothing But a Fantasy?

Well I'm Sorry FloraFox but I Do Not accept that At All & Never Will? Not Now? Not Ever.......Indeed? It actually makes me quite upset reading that & were it a man telling a woman Men Cannot rape them? He'd be castigated & rightly so? Why Should it be any different for me just because I'm a man? Humans Can rape each other & as I've Always said? The Real crime of Rape? Is not the physical act done by One Man/Woman To another Man/Woman? No the Real Crime is the absolute Removal &/or overriding of Their Free Will & Choice as to whether They are the ones who Want to have Sexual Intercourse Or Not? And That can happen all to easily to men & most definitely Can (& Does as I found out? Sad ) happen to some Men at the hands of Women?

I'm sorry but to say Men Cannot Ever be raped Full Stop By Women? Is inaccurate & most certainly Wrong - I was? Seven Times at Least. And no-one will Ever, Ever convince me that This was anything But rapes she committed on & did to me with a mixture of blackmail & force that wouldn't work on another man (as I could die very easily If hit in the wrong place due to the Plates In My Face unlike most other people? And I do mean Instantly?) And the reason being? Because Rape? Is Exactly What it Was? I wish someone would believe me? To find you do not & even deny that such a crime as was done to Me Cannot Exist? Makes me feel more sad & upset than fo a long while? It Really Hurt me more than you will Ever know.......................Sad Sigh

I will go now but I hope you read my words & my story above on this page (despite it's length?) in Full? Then just maybe? You will see & understand just How wrong your final assertion there was FloraFox? As I will end this by saying exactly What was done to me & tellin you? It most certainly Is Indeed possible? My Name? My Real Name? Is Simon - And my Ex' Raped me not once but a number of times & she Did it? By taking away My choice as to whether we Had sex or not? I hope you believe me in time as you, I or any other would (& Should) Any Woman who said this happened to her? Take Care? I think I'll go now as I need a lie-down & feel very sad with a headache at All the awful, dark & just very bad memories This & writing about it has brought me Yet again? I'm off to a dark room now for a sleep? Bye for now & keep well everyone & in future? I hope Someone Listens to what I have to say as I can assure you all? I most certainly Did Not Make all this up? It Was Done to me? And I Named what that Evil B**tch My Ex' did to me as being Rape Because Reason Being? That was Exactly What it Was & always will have been.................Sigh - [Sad]

FloraFox · 26/01/2014 00:09

redline what you describe is assault and sexual assault. Rape requires penetration with a penis, it is a specific type of sexual assault carried out by men against women and less often against other men. Other sexual assaults can be serious and damaging but they are not rape.

Svina · 26/01/2014 00:23

I can't read your posts, redline, the punctuation is fucked, so it doesn't make any sense.

Redline · 26/01/2014 15:35

In This Country yes Florafox? Your description of rape as described by English Law (& I should know? I studied Law for nearly 4 years?) is correct but that's actually Not the case for other countries around the world which I believe is right? Rape is More? Much more than just a crime committed against Females? How many times do you hear women who Have suffered it talking about losing Their choice as to whether to participate or not? Being Upset & violated at the Lack of Consent on Their part? Now if That happens to a Man? I repeat? What is different about it?

As I said? This Countries Law May (Very Much Erroneously if you ask me?) View it as Only being possible for a rape to have occurred because a man has done it to a woman? But in a number of others? Including the United States? Rape is defined as occurring when a person has their Choice as to whether to participate in sex or not removed as being the Real Crime? And that? Can indeed be done To men as well as by them? I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree but I think if it can be (& is?) done to One sex? It is certainly possible it can be done To them as well by the other?

This article from The Oregon Herald; A US Newspaper?

www.oregonherald.com/bnews/story.htm?id=686

This one from PolicyMic.com (I think?) A US website with various legal articles

www.policymic.com/articles/3323/new-legal-definition-of-rape-shows-changing-attitude-towards-masculinity

And This One from LegalMatch - A US Law Site?

www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/rape-and-gender--can-a-woman-rape-a-man.html

All Help explain the view taken on Female On Male Rape & that it most certainly in all three views? Does exist in the US? I think myself that the Law there while often inferior to or derived from English Law in some ways? Has Much the better of English in this respect? Over there? Rape is a "Gender-Neutral" Crime & IMO? That's exactly What it is? If anyone asks me ever what went on with my ex'? I call it that as I had No choice as to whether to participate & we can spar all day about If it was Only Sexual Assault/Aggrevated SA or indeed Rape of some sort but I know deep down in my Heart - What it was & Just how violated I felt from it? And despite me not being female or some Ladies not agreeing with me? I Know that Deep Down I still feel like that now almost 4 years later? I always have done & I Always will do............[Sad]

CaptChaos · 26/01/2014 16:20

If, as we have to assume, you're in the UK, then you cannot, under English law have been raped. What has happened to you, I'm guessing, as I found your posts so difficult to read, is awful, but isn't rape, it is sexual assault. It is the fault of society at large, and patriarchal society in particular, that sexual assault is seen as so much lesser than rape, but it isn't, as your posts attest.

Rape, by it's definition, isn't gender neutral, it is a violation of another, by a man, with his penis. Sexual assault, which is what you allege has happened to you, is gender neutral.

FloraFox · 26/01/2014 21:58

Rape is not a gender neutral crime. English law rightly recognises the specific nature of rape as an offence carried out by men on (predominantly) women. In a culture where women have long been oppressed by men, rape is one tool by which women's subordination is reinforced. It is also the only crime which can produce a child. Your individual situation (I'm not clear what it was, but don't feel obliged to elaborate) is sad and reflects your individual relationship with that woman. Women as a class are raised with the spectre of rape shadowing their entire lives by men they know and men they don't know. It is most certainly not a gender neutral crime.

caruthers · 27/01/2014 02:27

In this country it isn't a gender neutral crime but in many others it is.

I believe you Redline.

CaptChaos · 27/01/2014 04:11

I believe Redline too. I am very sorry he was sexually assaulted by his ex.

He wasn't raped though, because he can't be raped by a woman. It doesn't matter whether or not a particular legislature has decided to water down the gendered nature of rape. It is what it is.

mathanxiety · 27/01/2014 05:17

SF:
As feminists focus on male on female. One in 3 lesbians experiencing partner sexual assault is pretty prevalent too, wouldn't you say? Ergo they don't actually care about women, they really only care about hating men etc...

There are a lot more straight women, and lesbians too, raped by men than lesbians raped by other lesbians. This is because lesbians comprise a very small proportion of the female population.

Since rape by men affects both straight and lesbian women and since vastly more women of all stripes are affected by that crime than sexual assault by other women, I think it makes sense to point out that it happens and to try to provide services to help victims, and of course to try to put an end to it. Rape is such a priority that nobody even knows how to count instances of the crime. Your analogy doesn't work.

I know a man now in his 40s who was targeted as a teenager by an older woman (who was imo a sexual predator and had very likely done the same thing before to others). The teen in question looked taller and more muscular than his age would warrant but she knew he was a minor. If his mother hadn't been very alert her son would have been assaulted.

Redline, you had a horrible experience at the hands of a cruel person, but by law it wasn't rape even in the US (same article as above).

I think there is a lot merit in broadening the definition of who can legally rape and be raped, and broadening the definition of rape to include anal and oral sex taken/inflicted without consent. I certainly think in the case of the US it behoves all people to fight to stop the attempts by the right to make the definition of rape apply to only a small portion of rapes -- see the last election campaign for a few horrifying comments by candidates in the context of abortion policy, and also reports of judges making remarks about rape, etc. Maybe now is the time to not just fight back against the religious right but to push further. I think including assault of men by women under the definition of rape would highlight the issue of consent, which is at the heart of rape. This issue of consent is not understood by enough people.

mathanxiety · 27/01/2014 05:30

Redline you understand it completely Sad.

mathanxiety · 27/01/2014 05:41

SF, if Elam doesn't mean what he wrote, or if what he wrote in those links wasn't representative then I think he himself is very capable of having them removed or posting an article explaining himself.

You write words. They have a certain meaning. That is how you get your point across. If you change your mind or realise that wasn't what you meant to say you retract or remove or both.

mathanxiety · 27/01/2014 05:54

I'm struggling for the right words here, but isn't there something in the power imbalance that makes it different?
(Curlew)

No, there is nothing in the power balance that makes it different imo. The issue is always consent, pure and simple.
No always means no.
Only Yes means yes.

Read Elam's words and note above all his attempt to say there is really no such thing as No, or Yes; to completely fudge the idea that consent or refusal is easily ascertained directly from the other person and if it is not then he should not proceed, and assert instead that if the perpetrator thinks his victim wants sex then he can go ahead and have sex (of course this is all justification of entitlement).

Read what Twibble said about the feeling his house had been burgled. Read what Redline said about choice.

FloraFox · 27/01/2014 17:40

"I think including assault of men by women under the definition of rape would highlight the issue of consent, which is at the heart of rape."

I totally disagree. This would be a false attempt to gender neutralise the reality of male violence against women. The heart of rape is violence against women inflicted by means of a penis as a weapon. It is at the heart of women's oppression as can be seen in rape in war, "corrective rape" of lesbians, rape culture in the media, rape to punish a woman, rape to disrespect another man. The list goes on.

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/23/court-gang-rape-indian-village-birbhum

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25100122

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/children-as-young-as-12-are-committing-sex-abuse-on-other-children-as-part-of-gang-violence-8963775.html

This last article about rape in the UK starts off with gender neutral language about children raping and sexually assaulting children but the detail of the numbers makes it clear that girls and young women are the targets, the young girls and women are not sexually assaulting the young boys.

If we have any chance of dealing with this problem, we need to be able to name the problem. The problem is male violence against women and when it is inflicted with a penis, that is rape.

olathelawyer05 · 27/01/2014 22:52

Yes the 'legal' definition of rape in this county makes it something that only men can commit (thus making men the ultimate bad guys!! Hooray!).

However the 'legal' definition of something is not necessarily the same as the 'meaning' and contrary to what some might want to believe, the meaning of rape is indeed very gender neutral - it is simply in the taking by force/without consent. You only need to carry out relatively surface level research to know and accept that this is true, and observing that most rapes [legally speaking] are committed by men, doesn't change this.

If Redline has had something taken from him without his consent, that is rape, and he is perfectly entitled to call it so. There was a time when a man could not 'legally' rape his 'wife'. Would you care to correct a wife whose husband had forced himself on her during that time, that she wasn't actually raped because that's not what the law says rape is?

I generally don't understand the fervent desire by some (feminists typically) to 'own' rape as something men do to women. Does it really lessen the seriousness if women could 'legally' rape men? This kind of position indicates not so much an interest in 'equality', but in the retention of some manner of special victim status for women.

I am of black African descent raised in the UK, and have experienced rascist crime. The overwhelming majority of the rascist crime I have been privy to during my lifetime has been 'white on black' if you will. However, it would be frankly silly of me to believe that the racism I have suffered as a black person would be somehow diminished by the legal recognition that white people can suffer the same thing.

mathanxiety · 28/01/2014 01:32

Yes, the penis is involved and since women don't have them only men can legally rape under current law, but the crux of the matter is lack of consent.

Lack of asking for explicit consent, or taking previous consent as current consent, or inferring consent from dress, behaviour (all sorts of elements that are in the eye of the beholder and are convenient ex post facto justifications) -- not the penetration per se but the fact that it is done without consent is the heart of the crime of rape. The criminalisation of rape within marriage went some way towards increasing awareness of the idea that lack of consent is the issue, and not how some young single women dress or where they go after dark or how much they drink, or how much of a fight they put up once attacked.

Focusing on consent as the key element of rape as opposed to penetration would make the problem far easier to understand for neanderthals like Elam and the rest of the MRA who apparently do not think something is a problem unless it affects men, although admittedly it is clear that they do not acknowledge the rape of men by other men as an issue, and of course they use the alleged scale of the problem of women attacking men as a way to attack women's campaign against rape. While I acknowledge that women can and do assault men, I do not think the issue of women assaulting men is a problem on the same scale as men assaulting other men, which by some estimates affects about 10% of men. I have to say it would be nice to see someone like Elam who clearly thinks women are members of another species and can legitimately be hunted as if they are some sort of prey having to admit that men also suffer assault, and similar devastation after assault, and above all that they are assaulted by other men and sometimes women.

mathanxiety · 28/01/2014 07:54

The fear is that equality of victimhood will mean that all that women have gone through and continue to go through will be erased as men elbow women and women's experience over the millennia aside and milk it for all it's worth. I think this is a valid fear given that there is an organisation in the first place campaigning to preserve men's rights against alleged attack.

On the whole however, I think one way to attack the idea that rape basically doesn't exist, that it is all she said/he said, unquantifiable, impossible to define, etc., is to have men stand up and say they were raped, by women, yes, but more importantly as far as the cultural politics go, by other men. Until men get involved in the conversation about rape, and converse as equals, there is no conversation possible. It is always going to be a case of women banging their heads against a brick wall and groups like the MRA and religious right spewing misogyny at whoever will listen - the net losers will be women who are already very much silenced.

In the long run I think women have more to gain from focus on the issue of consent, which I think would be the outcome of men coming out about being raped, because the likes of the MRA (there are lots of fellow travellers with half baked Neanderthal ideas about rape) would have difficulty explaining what exactly it was about the behaviour or dress of men that suggested they were 'asking for it' without completely exposing themselves as the rape apologists that they are. It would be difficult for them to explain what made some men entitled to rape other men, or what made some men deserve to be raped - far more difficult than it is for them to assert that men are entitled to rape women. Even in the case of accepting that women can and do rape men, which of course would be trumpeted loudly by MRA types, the issue that would come to the fore is that of consent.

Beachcomber · 28/01/2014 08:42

It is important that rape remain a crime distinct from sexual assault. And it is nothing to do with attempts to make men as a class out to be 'bad guys' or to confer victim status to women as a class. Rather, it is a statement of fact; of biological fact and of sociological fact.

Rape is an act of male dominance. Of biological dominance and of social dominance. Rape (and fear of rape) contributes to maintaining a system of social hierarchy in which men dominate and women are oppressed.

Rape is an act in which the penis becomes a weapon, and it is a weapon that women are very afraid of because it can impregnate us.

Rape is used as a weapon of war in the ultimate act of male dominance - an act of violence on entire communities by forcibly penetrating their female members.

Never in human history have women used mass sexual assault on men as a weapon of war or act of dominance. Girls do not routinely use the sexual assault of boys in gang culture hierarchy dominance. Women do not mass pimp out men to be sexually assaulted for money by women. Women do not traffic hundreds of thousands of men for the purpose of being sexually assaulted by other women. Women do not use sexual assault or fear of sexual assault to keep men off the streets and out of female dominated areas of power.

No man, after being sexually assaulted by a woman, will ever have to do a medical test to find out if he now has a piece of that woman growing inside his body. No child will ever be born, aborted, adopted, or killed as a victim of infanticide after a man has been sexually assaulted by a woman. No man will ever be dominated in an abusive relationship by being forcibly impregnated by his wife. No communities will ever be colonised by outside women sexually assaulting the men.

Rape is a gendered crime, and the law reflects this.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 28/01/2014 10:11

Great post, beach. Trying to make out that that rape and sexual violence isn't gendered is (almost) at the top of the MRA agenda.

mathanxiety · 28/01/2014 21:49

That is all undeniable. There is of course a very compelling argument that rape is a gendered crime.

Sadly, men in general do not want to know, and see women's description of historical oppression as well as the impact of rape on our consciousness as a personal attack. They are apparently able to avoid acknowledging that rape is a problem created and inflicted upon the world by something innate in masculine nature.

It is too easy for men to avoid thinking about the problem because it is one that affects only women. It is too easy for men to look at rape in war and congratulate themselves that they or their ancestors were on the side that didn't do that, or that that is something only uncivilised Africans or hate-filled Serbs or cruel Russians would do to women -- it's something other men do, and recounting of historical oppression with rape as a tool thereof makes them very defensive on an individual or tribal level.

As seen fairly recently in the US, it is an item of belief that the issue of pregnancy resulting from rape is a non-starter because women's bodies are able to stop conceiving if 'real rape' has occurred Hmm. There's mental gymnastics for you. And then there is the subset of men who do not have enough empathy to understand how much rape hurts women because deep down they hate women and do not see them as human. I am not sure rational argument would sway them at all.

It's fairly clear when women are being raped en masse by invading armies what is going on (even if that spectacle only reinforces the belief that that is only done by other men). In the here and now, in the pub carpark, at the party or out on the date, or at home in bed with your husband, the issue of consent is paramount, and too easy to sidestep thanks to a convenient mental trick of seeing women's speech as unreliable when it comes to indicating what they want or don't want, as if they speak some alien or non-human language. It is too easy to portray women as beings who communicate in extra linguistic ways, who 'ask for it' telepathically. More mental gymnastics of course. This can only happen and can only be got away with when individual men feel completely entitled to use women/see women as less than human/have got the message that their behaviour is acceptable. If something only happens to women or if it only affects women badly, then in the minds of some men, it is not all that significant. The idea that men can share the position of being preyed upon (primarily by other men but also by women) might make inroads into the tendency to see rape of women as something that happens to beings that are somehow alien.

Women themselves for a long time bought into the reasoning that if a woman had been raped there must have been contributing factors on her part. Many still hold this belief. Women for their part have been conditioned to accept that there is something about some women that makes rape inevitable or even deserved, certainly not something they have a right to complain about. Again, the spectacle of rape in war is different; however, it's easy to avoid the big picture of general male oppression and see it as the work of specific armies or ethnic or racial groups, somewhere else, and not something any individual man is capable of doing to any individual woman.

The net result of the patriarchal system (which imo includes capitalism and acceptability of rape) can be seen in the few men who are very well off financially and a majority who struggle. I think if socialism (and other alternatives to capitalism) managed to appeal to people who have been the losers in capitalism then it will also be possible to define rape in a way that makes men sit up and understand it could happen to them. Just as asserting that rape can happen within marriage served to raise consciousness of what constitutes rape among women (and some men) and steer many away from the idea that rape is done to scantily dressed young women of 'loose morals', consciousness raising among men that men can also be raped would go far towards erasing the notion that it is about anything other than consent of the victim (as a matter of legal definition) and entitlement on the part of the perpetrator.

I feel the MRA may well end up hoist by its own petard if the definition of rape is extended.

vesuvia · 29/01/2014 00:30

olathelawyer05 wrote - "If Redline has had something taken from him without his consent, that is rape, and he is perfectly entitled to call it so."

Rape is one type of sexual assault.

My understanding is that, in English law, sexual assault covers 3 situations:

  1. sexual assault - which covers sexual contact without consent and without penetration. Perpetrators and victims can be female or male.
  2. sexual assault by penetration - which covers sexual contact without consent, including penetration by an object other than a penis. Perpetrators and victims can be female or male.
  3. rape - which covers penetration by a penis without consent. Perpetrators can be male only. Victims can be female or male.

"having something taken without consent" does not make it rape. This phrase also applies to the other types of sexual assault as well as non-sexual crimes such as theft, burglary, fraud etc. Absence of consent is a major feature of rape but it is not the defining characteristic of rape.

Why are some people trying to change the meaning of rape to become any type of sexual assault, with or without penetration and with or without a penis? Who does this benefit? It benefits the people who want to obscure the gendered nature of rape.

Although men and boys can be rape victims, two of the reasons why rape is a gendered type of sexual assault are that only males are doing the raping and only females risk pregnancy from being raped.

Rape and the other types of sexual assault are all terrible crimes that can have devastating effects on the victims, but this does not mean that all types of sexual assault are gender-neutral or the same in every way, as if they were interchangeable.

Women, girls, boys and men can be raped by male rapists. This does not appear to be Redline's situation.

I hope male rapists will stop raping women, girls, boys and men.
I hope male sexual assaulters will stop sexually assaulting women, girls, boys and men.
I hope female sexual assaulters will stop sexually assaulting women, girls, boys and men.

mathanxiety · 29/01/2014 04:50

Not all females risk pregnancy from rape.

The effect on a dishonoured father or husband of a raped women was the main problem with rape, historically, and the danger of pregnancy resulting from rape was seen as primarily one borne by the men whose chattel or child the woman was since he would be providing for a child inveigled into his household illicitly.

Also in reference to Beach's post, rape of men and boys by conquering armies was a feature of ancient war and possibly of modern war too.

WhentheRed · 29/01/2014 05:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.