OK. Please can we talk about women raping men?

[curlew]

It's a key part of the MRA agenda. Some MRA even say that men are as often victims of rape by women as women are of rape by men.

I absolutely agree that sex should always be consensual,and if a man has been forced, by either physical or psychological means into sex, then he has been raped and deserved of course to be taken seriously, and for the perpetrator to be charged and ,nif found guilty, convicted. And I know that an erection is a physiological response, and does not necessarily mean that a man actually wants to have sex.

But the MRA are full of stories of men waking up after falling asleep drunk at parties to find women on top of them. And vqriations on th them of being forced to penetrate against their will. And, it might just be my misandry showing, but really? Does this happen a lot? Is it a really serious problem that needs to be addressed, and have equivilant resources given to it?

"Aroused" does not necessarily mean the person wants to have sex, emmeline. All sorts of things trigger arousal.

Also, the neurology for fear is extremely close to that for sexual arousal & orgasm. Female rape victims often lubricate and sometimes orgasm.

emmelinelucas

No, a man need to be aroused to be able to do that.

curlew
"The age of consent is the same got girls and boys."
Thanks
"Technically, women cannot rqpe men by definition."

I know, My personal feeling is that the definition is wrong

As a feminist, I believe male rape is true. In the country I've moved to, it is categorised as sexual assault as it happens. Male rape by females can, I believe, happen. Just as rare by gender on the same gender occurs, or women being raped by men can happen. I think it's wrong to act as some people do about it- female on male rape is a tiny minority, but it exists. This reality doesn't diminish male on female rape- and due to male on female rape being the majority, then of course a lot of/most of efforts should be concentrated on this- but I think male rape by females should be recognised. It doesn't necessarily mean forced into penetration- it could mean withdrawing consent part way through or a man having an erection and consenting to some actions, but not to penetration.

And arousal can be involuntarily triggered. As a victim of sexual assault, I know personally that what you may not want, your body can 'like'- the same action triggers the same thing, although you are terrified and don't want it for rape.

I didnt know that about men.
I could understand about assault. Not wanting to be touched and so on.

I was molested for years.
I have also had sex that I didnt want, particularly. Not rape or anything.
There was absolutely no sexual response from me.
But that is only my experience.
I cant say I have enjoyed reading this thread, but it has been very enlightening.
In a good way in that I have seen things from a different perspective.

I think the problem is that there are some men's groups who are not prepared to accept that, while woman on man rape occurs, it is much less common than man on woman or, and this is the one they really like to forget about- man on man. There is certainly an attempt to make woman on man rape as big an issue as man on woman- some extremists even say that it is more common. So women get angry because men seem to be minimalizing women's experience and vice versa. I don't know where we go from here.

Thanks for that great post WhenthRed. Lots to think about. I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

Great post, WhenThe

Boney, because the UK doesn't have a statutory rape law, I think that neither a male nor a female teacher would be charged with rape in your example.

Such a good post,WhenTheRed. You expressed what I was floundering about with.

I find myself wanting to take it further- and I hesitate to say this- but it does feel to me as if men are trying to take over the whole rape scenario. Women have sex when they don't fancy it much and the man does? That's how life is. And (to cite another current thread) man repeatedly puts his finger up a woman's anus when she's said she doesn't like it- well,you can't blame a man for trying! Men have sex when they don't fancy it much- RAPE!!!!!!!

Continuously enthusiastic consent is the only way to go, isn't it. For women and men.

I would still rather do away with the crime of rape. It requires too much definition. It would be foolish to say the prat who stuck his finger up my fanny on the Tube "raped" me, but George Galloway would probably think it worse than the husband who pinned me down & did something very damaging during consensual sex. I'd disagree with Galloway, and so would the law, but his attitude is illustrative of how messy an issue it is.

If anybody does anything unwelcome to another person's body without consent, it's assault. In the context of sex-related activity, the required consent should ongoing, enthusiastic participation. I'm sure the CPS and the courts are capable of determining which sexual assaults are more serious/aggravated/grievous/etc ... My point, I think, is that a more sweeping legislative approach would improve everybody's understanding about the right to sovereignty over one's own body.

I think the law does have the power to alter common perception. I know not everyone agrees.

Just to bring in another angle this is a really, really good piece about the rapper L'il Wayne.

He was on a chat show and the male host said "Oh, I hear you lost your virginity when you were 11! Ha ha!"

Only L'il didn't find it quite so amusing.

So the piece then goes to look at rape apologism and how it alters (but is still used) depending on who the victim is : www.racialicious.com/2009/04/14/when-a-man-is-the-victim-a-second-study-in-rape-apology/?wpmp_tp=0

Wow, that's really interesting, Gosh. Thanks!

It's a pity I can't see the video as I'd love to watch how he responded. I'll have a look for it on YouTube tomorrow. Other strong points made, too.

Always up for it. Two steps along from asking for it?

I can't see the video - it says its private and although I've searched for Li'l Wayne/jimmy kimmel videos I can't find it. Shame, as it would be interesting to see the body language of those involved. I watched another one and JK has a very patronising/ domineering attitude - seems to me partly because Li'l Wayne is indeed quite short and slight (like a woman?).

Hi all,
I've been following this thread privately for a few days, but didn't wish to jump in and cause a fuss since I'm one of those MRA's that get people in a lather.

Though you may be interested in the following interview of Philip W. Cook by Erin Pizzey and co at BlogTalkRadio.

Regards,
Seaforth.

My apologies, considering the subject matter of the thread already, I didn't consider the possible effect on children. I don't believe that there is anything in the show that is any more graphic than has already been mentioned on the thread.

Whilst it is long, it is informationally dense and since the original post specifically mentioned MRA attitudes I thought that anyone interested in this thread who doesn't know any MRA's would enjoy the chance to hear them discussing the issue essentially in private.

MRA's tend to specialize, and my area is not the data of the rape issue, but I would add one comment, the original poster stated "Some MRA's even say that men are as often victims of rape by women as women are of rape by men.", whilst I would agree that some MRA's do say this, my opinion of the data I have seen is that this is not true. The American CDC survey that this came from clearly shows that if you use a definition of rape by envelopment and a bidirectional definition of consent, the rape rate of men by women is below that of women by men. But it is within a small percentage.

Where things get very interesting is when you add to these figures the amount of rapes that occur on men when in prison, the amount of these in American prisons seems to be in the outrageous level. I have seen calculations that when you add these amounts together for the American population the amount of rapes of men over take the amount of rapes of women. In fairness I've seen a lot of argument about both sets of figures and haven't personally checked the maths. (I feel a project coming on).

Regards,
Seaforth.

Ok, sea forth, but posting a 1.5h radio programme on a parenting site, it's not massively surprising that a child may be in the room during playback.

Is the programme about rape data?

"Ok, sea forth, but posting a 1.5h radio programme on a parenting site, it's not massively surprising that a child may be in the room during playback."

I've already apologised for my thoughtlessness regarding this.

The program is a discussion between Erin Pizzey, (Lady who opened the first domestic violence shelter in the UK, Author), Dean Esmay (Managing Editor AVoiceForMen) and Philip W. Cook, author of "When Women Sexually Abuse Men, The Hidden Side of Rape, Stalking, Harassment, and Sexual Assault."

Whilst it does touch on the data a great deal, they don't always cite where the figures came from, if anyone wants references/papers and can't find them, message me giving a time in the show and I'll see what I can dig up.

What they spend a fair amount of time discussing is the current zeitgeist towards the male perspective of the issue.

Regards,
Seaforth.

Wow the male perspective on the issue. I'm so excited to spend an hour and a half listening to that. After all we never hear the male perapective in the mainstream media.

I didn't think there was a hidden side of stalking and harrassment of men by women. The crazy pyscho bunny boiling bitch is quite a common figure. Especially in comparison to the female rapist. probably proportionate?

"But the MRA are full of stories of men waking up after falling asleep drunk at parties to find women on top of them. And vqriations on th them of being forced to penetrate against their will. And, it might just be my misandry showing, but really? Does this happen a lot? Is it a really serious problem that needs to be addressed, and have equivilant resources given to it?"

There was a "National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey" (that's a PDF link, by the way) from the US in 2010 that is a favourite of the MRAs for the following reason: the number of women who were raped in the last twelve months, and the number of men who were 'made to penetrate' in the last twelve months, is about the same (1,270,000, and 1,267,000 respectively). The section with these figures starts on page 17.

The report defines 'Made To Penetrate' as including "times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim?s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent. Among women, this behavior reflects a female being made to orally penetrate another female?s vagina or anus. Among men, being made to penetrate someone else could have occurred in multiple ways: being made to vaginally penetrate a female using one?s own penis; orally penetrating a female?s vagina or anus; anally penetrating a male or female; or being made to receive oral sex from a male or female. It also includes female perpetrators attempting to force male victims to penetrate them, though it did not happen". I can't really see why this wouldn't come under the definition of rape myself, it reads like a pretty textbook case of non-consensual sex.

An interesting breakdown of the perpetrators for male victims: "the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (93.3%) reported only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims reported only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (79.2%), sexual coercion (83.6%), and unwanted sexual contact (53.1%). For non-contact unwanted sexual experiences, approximately half of male victims (49.0%) reported only male perpetrators and more than one-third (37.7%) reported only female perpetrators (data not shown)".

So 79.2% of those 1,267,000 men who were 'made to penetrate' were the victims of female perpetrators. In other words, 1,003,464 men were raped by women in the last year, in the US. (If you consider 'being made to penetrate' to be raped, which I can't see how you wouldn't).