a question for the men here

[Mitchy1nge]

what makes you think you have anything of real value to bring to discussions about women's experiences and expectations?

obviously some men can make interesting contributions (although those sorts of men don't often announce themselves here) to some discussions but generally, on the whole, everything everywhere else is already pretty saturated in Male Voice so was just wondering where you got the idea from

Resorting to personal insults now Susan?

I think most people will understand what I was trying to say. Even with your misquotes. I don't think all feminists agree with me btw. We have had some good threads on here about the validity of female-only spaces, men's role in feminism, what things men should be doing that they aren't currently, whether men can be feminists etc. Interesting stuff if you'd care to read.

I'll repeat. Men need to listen. That is what they primarily need to do within feminism. Telling us what and how things should be done and insisting on being involved in "discussions" isn't on. Asking questions to gain understanding - fine.

^ That is AbigailAdams at 14.39. Please show me where she says I shouldn't be posting. I'm reading (listening) and, hopefully, learning from this and other threads on Mumsnet.

Admittedly, she did say "Telling us what and how things should be done... isn't on"

I happen to agree with that. There are 'men' who don't, but they're not worth wasting my time on. So I don't.

I think making statements such as "men rape women" is far too simplistic and may be an interesting short cut in conversations with other like minded rads. (oh how I hate these bloody bloggs, a complete bastardisation of what is otherwise quite good theory)

Should men just shut up and listen? No, the history of humanity is one in which we have all played a part. How we got here is as much to do with what women have and haven't done as anything men have.

Do children learn by shutting up and listening? I believe they learn best when they ask questions and make enquiry, when they engage with what they hear and even start to question what they are told. Heaven help us should we all start making "political" statements without being prepared to examine the issue in more detail.

Nicholas, she said you shouldnt be involved in discussions in two seperate posts. You just quoted one. You can pretend that 'posting' isnt involving yourself in a discussion if you want. Then you can be right. Incidentally you clearly don't agree with that sentiment because you are infact posting in discussion right now... sigh

I agree with most of Minis statement if that helps anyone?

PromQueenWithin,

You can interpret anything as an insult, i could say the same about your post. I wont though. People often find dissenting opinions insulting. My issue is with those who use that as an excuse to avoid justifying their position.

Best. Thread. Ever.

Give people enough rope...

You haven't seen me before my first coffee

"For example Robert Jenson and Lundy Bancroft do this very well. So I think you are right, men need to get involved in feminism much more but probably not in the same ways you think. Tackling other men's behaviour is what they really need to be getting on with"

Robert Jensen is great. I agree that men should be more sympathetic and engaged with feminism but I don't think that men can just confine themselves to tackling other men's behaviour. Your statement reads as though you believe men and women's spheres and experiences are entirely separate. They are not. One position relies on the other for it's characteristics, like good and evil, we can not know what is evil if we do not know what is good...... if progress is to be made then we need men to listen ? how do we know they are if we are standing in different rooms?

All Aboard!
s3.freefoto.com/images/11/06/11_06_13_web.jpg

I've dipped into Mumsnet a few times in the last couple of days, this Susan person is everywhere, and it's always the same. Everyone responds. (I mean I get it, I am now.)

I think carrying on the discussion around her might be prudent. She literally does nothing but haunt these boards looking for people to disagree with using her rather 'special' 'knowledge'. And here she is again.

I realise the paradox here, by writing this I'm giving her jumping up and down attention seeking what it so desperately craves. However I just wondered if anyone realised she was monopolising any board related to feminism, with the same old balls whilst adding nothing to the actual discussion.

It goes something like this...

Argue, argue, argue, insult, insult, message deleted, message deleted, whine, strop, pedantic point, pedantic non-point, twist somebody's comment, lie about somebody's comment, message deleted, mock-outrage, snivel, snivel, 'your all ganging up on me', wail, angry mock-outrage, demand apology from somebody saying something much less offensive than she did at the start of the thread, message deleted, message deleted, flounce off, take a breath, bow to the imaginary audience in her head, have a cup of tea whilst telling herself she is a really worthwhile person and that row just proved it, join another feminist thread, Argue, Argue.... Ad infinitum

Christ I'm exhausted just writing that! Perhaps it should have a title?
I'm calling it 'Susan's Song', it makes it feel a little nicer.

Right, where are we? That's it, 'mock-outrage', and it's over to you Susan......

I agree rm76. I really do wonder why mnhq won't give us an ignore button in fwr

RM76 you are spot on. You've just saved me the task of thinking up a load of invective bile so ta for that.

Yes you are right RM.

Mini can I get back to you. You've asked an interesting question.

it would be easier and more infornative to read the opinions of men about feminism...
if...

the world weren't saturated with men's voices opining on everything
this opining often happens at the expense of women's voices
many of the opinions weren't random musings - your opinion as a man about the legality of abortion may be valid, but it will never be a choice you have to make - it doesn't make me more right, but it does mean that it will never be a debating exercise for me

and mostly...

if many of these opinions didn't seem to boil down to 'i have thought about this for all of 5 minutes so let me tell you how you are doing feminism wrong, and how my musings trump your lived experiejce because a bloo bloo bloo my penis'

i know i am a letdown to the movement, but i will leave the arguing and convincing to the whippersnappers because, confronted with men who march into places where women are discussing feminism and do these things (which they certainly are entitled to do) i just think that i just could not give a shit

sorry

SGM - I have a lovely ignore button too, sheer bliss.

Although I also share a large dollop of Chibi's "could not give a shit" too.