a question for the men here

[Mitchy1nge]

what makes you think you have anything of real value to bring to discussions about women's experiences and expectations?

obviously some men can make interesting contributions (although those sorts of men don't often announce themselves here) to some discussions but generally, on the whole, everything everywhere else is already pretty saturated in Male Voice so was just wondering where you got the idea from

Anyway back to the OP, I do find the occasional male poster to be interesting.. but I just get angry when they feel their opinion is just as relevant to the women's. It isn't. And whoever up thread said it isn't academia it's just chat.. so you know, don't take it too seriously basically.. That just winds me up> Women will take it more seriously because men have the luxury of seeing it as academic or theoretical nonsense or "just chat"... but these are our lives. We put up with it in a way that men won't understand. And if a few women on this page "defend" each other... good.

To get back to the OP for a moment, I think my experience of ?fighting oppression? is located elsewhere plolitically than placing feminism as the primary driver, and that?s based in my own development over the years. And possibly my sex. ( tho? there?s lots of women who deride and eschew feminism so it isn?t as clear cut and deterministic as that.)

By that I mean it involved lots of direct action, demonstrations, youthful fuelled debates, reading and consciousness-raising before I came to any understanding really of what feminism was actually about, which I learned mainly from female partners and women writers like A. Carter M Piercey, M. Attwood, but it didn?t override other stuff.(Hence Rock Against Racism/Anti-Nazi League/Clause 28/the Alton Bill anyone? And general noisiness about what was wrong with the world at the time, and fighting with people who wished a status quo)

So that chimes with male posters above who say ?I post here because I am interested in politics? amongst other things, and that?s a better answer for me as to why I occasionally post here. I also know some stuff that?s relevant, that some posters on any thread at any particular time don?t know.

Currently I?m engaged, professionally in the world of learning disability and deficits and how that impacts on people?s lives and what can be done to overcome barriers that sets up. It isn?t ?in competition? with womens rights, as far as I see it, (LD is no respecter of sex and gender).

So all of that is by way of an explanation of some reasons as to why a male who doesn?t self-identify as a feminist posts here, and the best I can do on a currently empty stomach.

Hullygully

The ones that are instantly and evidently identifiable as male, however, have a little ol drum to beat whether they admit it or not. Otherwise why would we be made aware of their dingly-danglies at all?

In what way?
Like my name which ends 'Chap? or namechangeguy
Does that apply to a name like GideonsMummy?
or fatale?
or FFS Mitchy1nge?

Or how else do you identify instantly as male? Some of the most stridently "anti-feminist" posts come from those who I'd identify as female...

feministefatale

Anyway back to the OP, I do find the occasional male poster to be interesting.. but I just get angry when they feel their opinion is just as relevant to the women's. It isn't. And whoever up thread said it isn't academia it's just chat.. so you know, don't take it too seriously basically..

That would be me - just - you know - quoting the title of this particular sub forum. I recognise that there's an academic discipline, and have actually done some reading around the area. What I still don't get as an aside, is how we move past the Patriarchy and what a post-patriarchal society may look like, but that's an aside.

Ahem, you seem to have missed my point. But why should that worry you.

feministefatale

If your last was addressed to me, and I have missed your point, can I ask you make it less obliquely?

I read it as I suggested feminism shouldn't be taken seriously, which as I thought I'd clarified I do not suggest.

Not names OneMoreChap (altho of course they make a difference, I'd go for genderless meself as it's yet another signifier), but responding as A Man, sometimes to the point of "speaking as a man" rather than just responding as a human to the view being expressed.

Soz, I meant sometimes to the point of SAYING "speaking as a man..."

I'm sure you are clever enough to understand what I meant the first time...but let me spell it out.

Yes, this is the "chat" section but when you say "this isn't academia it's just chat" I read this to mean, the subjects aren't worthy of having an informed opinion, and therefore not "serious"

Now when many of the subjects include rape, violence, pay discrepancies sexual harassment... I still see them as relatively serious.

Can it stop being all about you now?

feministefatale if you dislike your posts being fisked, don't make 'em.
As I suggested, you'd misread what I said. So... not about me - but about your misreading of an unclear post.

Context, Onmorechap. I told you why I was offended, you told me that you were right and that I should get over it. But hey it's your "right". A man who was genuinely concerned with feminism might have at least taken pause to see why his comment could be taken as such when made by a man regarding important women's issues on a feminist forum.

Ignore button being pushed right about now.

I think we're back to the point that to post in feminism section, even the chat subsection, then to say 'it's just chat' is an attempt at dumbing down feminism. There are plenty of threads in the general chat section that cover feminist topics, and I wouldn't have the same expectations of those discussions. I know that sometimes it makes little difference which section a thread is in, but one that starts in feminism IS intended to be predominantly about/by/for feminists.

I used the analogy of going to the 'staffroom' in the nannies & childminders section. I just wouldn't go on there, as I am a parent. It's their place to relax and chat to people who have similar work experiences and they don't want a parent to stick their beak in and start interrupting. For the same reasons I wouldn't barge onto a thread in the dog house.

It's just rude to invite yourself in then start interrupting. Plenty of us post all over the forum. When I'm posting on the feminism section, I often want to run my ideas by other people and see their responses, I don't want to have to defend them against people who are here to argue.

There is a big difference between people who want to ask genuine questions, or learn more, and those who simply want to push their own agenda then claim 'ignorance' for a defense. I have no problem with anyone posting here to find out more - whoever they are.

I hate when I spend ages typing something out over and over and then the poster immediately after me explains it so much better

Beautifully put kickassangel

Of course it's interesting to hear men's views on feminism. However, one of the things that intrigues me is which posts in the feminist section men make a beeline for. I don't think I generally see a range of men's views on feminism (sadly) but rather men's views on a narrow range of topics that the wider subject of feminism touches on. The obvious example is when topics about prostitution/the sex industry arise. These threads do tend to attract a lot of male comments which is ironic as it's a clearly an area where men can have no experience - it is simply impossible for a man to have had experience of being either a female prostitute or a female living in a culture where prostitution/ the sex industry has a high profile. Therefore, the fact that these threads attract a lot of male comment suggests that men wish to comment on the subject from the male point of view - as customers and/or as the gender which has more to benefit (or certainly less to suffer) from this topic.

So it's a shame we don't see more men posting about other topics which the wider subject of feminism touches on such as parenting/equal pay/ family breakdown/ representation of women in the media etc etc.

Another thing I like about the feminist section is that quite often women post how a thread has made them rethink an issue, or how they have learned a lot from reading it. But the men don't often make that comment.

I agree, you rarely see a man say he is rethinking and act graciously. No not at all. Isn't that genderisation in practice though, men refusing to back down in case they look........well........ less than masculine.

Well, at least I can sleep easy knowing DadDancer approves of my link.

I also thank you RM76 the manboobz site is a breath of fresh air, it manages to talk about the very real dangers of each part of the sex industry whilst allowing people to be positive about sex not the industry that surrounds it. Although some posters did advocate porn and legalizing prostitution they were not battered by terms like " rape apologist" or privileged. I am going to intorduce the link in to another thread on far running at the moment about people in elder care homes who have had the ability to call in escortes.

Sex as a natural function, or as a manifestation of lust, or as something to be enjoyed is hard to separate from prostitution on the FWR boards, however from my quick glimpse at the threads on manboobz they not only see the separation but respect all sides and allow posters say what they are thinking. I have always hoped that on FWR we could get to the stage of seperating out and looking at what in a modern society we mean by consensual sex, sexual relationships, and the type of interaction that people have these days.

sweet dreams

I was just getting into bed and saw that last couple of messages LeithLurker/DadDancer.
I'm new here, but seem to have missed something, just asking, but why the focus on porn?

Manboobz is about naming and shaming MRA's and PUA's, along with outing various misogyny, mainly online.

I don't quite see the link with porn? Certainly they discuss it, and it is a liberal and varied community, but I'm at a loss as to why you both focused on this one aspect?

I'm sure when I tell them about it they will be as bemused as I am.

I mean, they talk about their pets constantly too, does that make them better feminists, or is it just the porn? 'cause I think lots of feminists on here like kittens.

Just curious, but NOT in that way so please no details.

So you're a Pro then?

Why doesn't one of the men on here start a thread in Dadsnet on men and feminism? (or whatever) I'd be quite happy to join the discussion.

LL

I have never found anyone on the FWR boards who finds it difficult to separate sex as "something to be enjoyed" from prostitution.

As a clue - in the first, both people are freely enjoying themselves, in the second, one person is paid in order that the person paying gets to enjoy themselves. Hope that helps.