Understanding how 'positive' attention is still unwelcomed.

[msrisotto]

This has been on my mind recently because I have realised that I don't trust men I don't know. I've been brought up not to (Stranger Danger! Mum always said if you get lost, approach a woman not a man etc) and my experiences with strange (as in strangers) men have been unpredictable....it was hard to explain which is why I didn't post until now, when I saw this post on Jezebel which actually explains it well.
jezebel.com/5953909/look-guys-even-nice-can-be-annoying

Now, as usual for these kind of posts, I have to qualify what i'm about to say with - i'm not boasting or saying i'm ever so attractive [Samantha Brick].
So recently I gave some directions to a bloke in a car, when I was finished, he said "You look fantastic by the way", I put my head down and walked off. The other day in Wenzels, 2 builder blokes stared at me and one said Hi, I ignored it, looked the other way and left with my purchase. I was wondering about why and came to the conclusion that I must just be shy or weird but I think the article explains it much better than I can. I'm not shy. When I was single, I welcomed attention in bars and nightclubs as they were appropriate situations to be meeting new people in a meat market kind of a way! Plus I was with my friends. But when i'm just trying to get on with my life, it's not worth engaging.

I dunno, this is a kind of outpouring of poorly formed thoughts that have been swirling round in my head over the last few weeks. If anyone has any thoughts, please come and talk to me about it!

That is quite irrelevant ^^ was just having a moment back in time there.

Good point dreaming. I'm not exactly a shy retiring sort but really, why should I have to wander about shouting expletives at people if I'm not in the mood just because they can't keep their big gobs shut and their eyes in their heads?

Hully - that's brilliant. I might try that next time [I'm out on my own after dark and not sporting a baby bump or other such man-repellant features].

It is not a matter of disagreement, it is about minimising people and their feelings. It is unnecessary.

I think calling people man haters is a bit of a shitty way to behave TBH.

I don't hate men.

avaboosmummy "feminism can't get above the men hating mindset and appears to rubbish women's/female strengths rather then champion them"

This interests me. What do you see as women's female strengths?

Hmmmmmm. Ideologically men making comments, albeit positive ones, are wrong. I know this, the feminist in me knows this but honestly, now approaching 50, i have realised how I kind of miss a little bit of positive male attention.

Yes i know that makes me a rubbish feminist and apols to the sisterhood but i find I am largely invisible to the male world now. No turning heads in bars, no builders flirting etc. All that stuff that would make me get on my high horse in the past........now it's gone and it feels quite sad.

It isn't about hating men. It is about expecting them to behave as if we were people with feelings and everything and not put their desires above our rights.

nelly - that's because you are used to finding personal and sexual validation through the male gaze.

I am DELIGHTED to be invisible.

Nelly- it IS sad. Because woman are very often graded in terms of their appearance/shag-worthiness, not valued as individual human beings. The point is though, surely, that if your only shot at visibility in the world is based on the Patriarchal Fuckability Test, then we need to start saying enough is enough.

Agree - I really resent having to be extremely rude or blunt to someone to make them go away.

And you really have to, or they will keep trying if you simper/vaguely smile/look embarassed etc.

They are not decent men to start with! - they are men trying it on with random strangers - how many people do you know who met and fell in love with someone after a random street conversation?

Yes probably. Hard to shake hundreds of years of socialisation but sometimes just miss being seen as attractive.

I think being invisible to the male world as you grow older and no longer pass the "attractiveness test" is all part of the discussion. As is missing that attention. I don't think that makes you a bad feminist, just human. (and that sounds really trite sorry!)

avaboosmummy if you had read my comments throughout the thread you would see why the sceptical face at the end of my post / sarcastic response was in reply to comments along the lines of why don't you give a "small grin to a random stranger who gave you a compliment". I certainly would not say that to anyone, it was supposed to be based on what the man might like to hear as a favourable response...

Why should there be a response to a stranger leering at you? It is not a compliment to be stared at or wolfwhistled at. Why antagonise the situation by saying F off?

Nelly - just when I thought I was getting a handle on this, you have gone and sent me back to square one again [hgrin].

As with so much in life, it's all about context, though, isn't it? Right time, right place etc. For those who suffer from this, do you think it is connected to class, or education?

I get you Nelly.
For me its not male attention per se, TS inappropriate male attention. I made a comment before about having 100 facets to my personality, it gets very very wearing when only one is focussed one. So in its time and place sexual interest is welcome, even if not reciprocated. But there are 99 other facets as well, don't be reductive and only value the sane one all the time. Talking to society there, which is made up of humans ofboth sexes!

RE this issue. Just because I hate the fact that SOME men do this doesn't mean I hate men. Surely that would mean that ALL men do this and I personally know a lot of men who would never do any of the crass things mentioned in the previous posts. I don't know any men in my circle of friends and family who would stand on a scaffold and shout 'nice tits' at passers by.

Perhaps those people who do think this is acceptable behaviour only think so because it's what they are used to seeing their friends do?

I mean RE this issue of men hating

What's the difference between the men who leered at me out of their van windows when I was 14 and when I was 19?

None as far as I can tell. Neither knew my actual age, but could see that I was young (a lot younger then most of them!)

Just noticed this thread, and agree with the general tenor,but:
UltraBOF
How fucking rude would I sound if I commanded make strangers I just happened to be passing to "Cheer up!"? Women do NOT say this to men, nor to other women, but for some reason men get to say it to women whenever they like.

tbh, I've been told things like "Cheer up, mate, might never happen", "Haven't you got a smile, then" or "Who pissed on your chips, then". Maybe I just look like a miserable git.

Oh, and being called "luv", isn't that sometimes a regional thing? I've been called "luv" by women reasonably often, and in Staffordshire was rather surprised to be called m'duck by a bloke.

I always thought m'duck was a Nottingham affectation. I heard it all the time when I lived there, used by and directed at both sexes.

IOnemorechap - don't think we're talking about that though are we? Local dialect is one thing. A bloke asked me to press the button on the lift with a cheery "Number 2 please gorgeous!" the other day. I didn't think he was a bastard and I didn't feel intimidated by him because he didn't then follow it up with a chat about whether I looked cheerful enough for him, or how nice my dress was or anything else.

He called me gorgeous, but it was just a "word". It's NOT the same thing as me sitting quietly on a train and a man saying "Alright gorgeous? Give us a smile then!".

As to the comments you've received about cheering up etc...who said these things to you? Was it other men or was it women? How did you respond and did you end up getting a mouthful if your response wasn't "right"?

ShirleyRots Cheer up - both by men and women - I said I must look like a miserable fuck Usually a grin back.

Pissed on my chips - that was actually a woman at a bus stop. I think I just said it was a Monday.

When I was very much younger I got shouted remarks from couple of young women, about - let's say - my jeans. I was quite embarrassed. Not sufficiently to to not go out with one of them a couple of weeks later when she grabbed me and said "You do know I'm not going out with x, don't you..." Rest assured I never wolf whistled at anyone, but I was very shy... until I got much older.

I think you've got it right, basically. Passing comment and on the way, seems much less offensive that "Can you tell me, you look nice, wanna go out" etc.

I think part of the problem is that it can feel relentless. Have you read the link upthread that slug posted?

I think that gives a very good POV which might make it easier to understand how it feels.

The how to approach women without looking like a rapist one... yes, seen it.
As I said, most "Smile, love's", I've seen are passing and not even attempting to open conversations, really.

But then, I'm not likely to worry too much about someone saying something like that. Bit peeved occasionally, but I'm not the demographic we're concerned with here.