Understanding how 'positive' attention is still unwelcomed.

[msrisotto]

This has been on my mind recently because I have realised that I don't trust men I don't know. I've been brought up not to (Stranger Danger! Mum always said if you get lost, approach a woman not a man etc) and my experiences with strange (as in strangers) men have been unpredictable....it was hard to explain which is why I didn't post until now, when I saw this post on Jezebel which actually explains it well.
jezebel.com/5953909/look-guys-even-nice-can-be-annoying

Now, as usual for these kind of posts, I have to qualify what i'm about to say with - i'm not boasting or saying i'm ever so attractive [Samantha Brick].
So recently I gave some directions to a bloke in a car, when I was finished, he said "You look fantastic by the way", I put my head down and walked off. The other day in Wenzels, 2 builder blokes stared at me and one said Hi, I ignored it, looked the other way and left with my purchase. I was wondering about why and came to the conclusion that I must just be shy or weird but I think the article explains it much better than I can. I'm not shy. When I was single, I welcomed attention in bars and nightclubs as they were appropriate situations to be meeting new people in a meat market kind of a way! Plus I was with my friends. But when i'm just trying to get on with my life, it's not worth engaging.

I dunno, this is a kind of outpouring of poorly formed thoughts that have been swirling round in my head over the last few weeks. If anyone has any thoughts, please come and talk to me about it!

Normal men don't go around making comments like that, and in my experience the ones that do have sexist and stalkerish tendencies. Any further comment or engagement after that point will be taken as sexual interest. So there's nothing really to do but walk away. Unless weirdo men are your type of course

No. I appear to be badly putting my foot in it. Sorry for that.
Can I go now please?

I'm not much of a reg here anymore a million years but please don't be afraid to post! One thing this section is very good at is unpicking assumptions might be a bit uncomfortable for both posters and lurkers but very thought provoking and clarifying

But the OPs examples are not wolf whistles or lewd shouts, and one is just a man saying Hi. Should there be special signals then to let people know your available to be chatted with or is any attempt off a dating website now unacceptable.

LMAO! Yes, women should wear special armbands stating they are "available to be chatted with" by men.

Where is the rolley eye emoticon on MN? It desparately needs one.

for Amillion.

amillionyears I can tell you're not trying to be offensive, please don't feel you have to go.

I think people are just pointing out the flaws in the logic, when you look at it from a different point of view.

FWIW I have been abused and I wasn't offended by your posts, although I'm glad people explained why they weren't good assumptions to have.

There was a thread in FWR at the beginning of the month about "should self-defence being taught in schools?" in response to someone's friend being raped who had frozen with fear.

Interestingly one of the posters said that at a self defence class they attended, as well as all the defensive moves taught, they spent a lot of time at learning to run faster. I don't think there were stats in that thread either.

I can't imagine there's any way of knowing whether victims are more likely to take martial arts classes.

I do think avoiding attacks and feeling safer are a big (not only) motivation for taking such classes. That's at least where I'm from (NY/DC)

Imagine if you were a doctor and all conversations came round to health ailments. Ffs! There's a time and place, you'll know it, I'm nor here for all comers
Sorta thing...

I have always viewed wolf-whistles/shouts from vans and the like as the actions of morons. It was the 'hello' in the shop in the OP that got me interested. I am just trying to discern where the cut-off is between approaching someone in a reasonable manner, and pissing them off. It is interesting.

The default position for most women is to politely humour people (unless it's an aggressive thing like a cat-call, when the response is more usually embarrassment), while hoping they'll leave them alone. So lots of men don't even realise how rude they've been.

NCG I think perhaps it was the staring as much as the Hi wrt the builders mentioned in the OP.

namechange

1 she was on her own, there were two of them.
2 she was in a shop on her own, not a bar/ club surrounded by friends.
3 OP said if younger and single and in the appropriate venue it would not have bothered her; she is older, not single and was not in an appropriate venue.

Oh, and the reason for that is a) the socialisation of gender roles, and b) not wanting the exchange to turn aggressive, as it often does.

I also think that the aim of wolf-whistling etc is to humiliate, rather than show 'appreciation'. Hence why it's often followed with gales of laughter or crude comments when the woman looks embarrassed.

WereTricksPotter

"So it's not had a lot to do with my size or perceived approachability/availability personally, aufeniae. "

Our personal experience varies wildy.

The reality for me was that between the ages of 14 and 19, I would get unwanted attention from men in the street several times a day every day of the week. (I was always dressed down, I don't think I even wore a dress till I was in my 20s!)

These days it happens to me about once in six months if that.

I can't see any other reason for the change other than my age and weight. Am I missing something here?

There is a word for all of the following behaviour:

1. Walking up to a total stranger and saying "You look fantastic by the way";

1. Wolf whistling at people;

3 Shouting out 'Nice butt' as someone walks by across the street; or

1. Disturbing someone sitting in a cafe and asking if they can buy you a drink.

That word is..... RUDE!

Its really is nothing to do with being a man or a woman or feminism or anything. Its just rude to invade someone's space like that and it is annoying.

I think it can vary, aufanie, but I'd say it was all part of the same thing: publicly assessing a woman's worth as based on her appearance, rather than interacting with them as just another human being.

The phrase 'nothing better to do' springs to mind re the OP.
Does it really matter? Are you not grown up enough to shrug it off? Perhaps even a small grin that a random stranger gave you a compliment?
I'm not sure I'd want to live in a world where we cannot give express an interest in the opposite sex, for fear of being branded a 'sexist pig'.
Surely in part this boils down to context, if repeatedly trying it on then that's harassment, but if you say you're not interested and the person backs off, then I don't see what the problem is.
Also I find the following sentence absolutely laughable welcomed attention in bars and nightclubs as they were appropriate situations to be meeting new people in a meat market kind of a way!
So that's okay then? If you go in bars/restaurants it's okay for this, but anywhere else is out of bounds.
It seems that 'feminists' want it all ways.

How often do women behave in that way to perfect strangers? Barring perhaps the situation of being a bit pissed and jolly on clubby nights out, which has its own set of conventions and social norms, as we've said?

How often do men?

This "feminist" only wants it the same way that men have it, actually. Which is the right to lead my life without having to constantly soothe some males' egos.

HTH

avaboosmummy yes it does matter.

Would you be happy with grown men approaching your 14 year old DD and making comments about her body in the street? Or shouting "nice tits" at her from cars?

Women and girls being treated like objects does matter.

Yes context does matter. I want to be able to go buy something from the shop without having to deal with random leery men.