Understanding how 'positive' attention is still unwelcomed.

[msrisotto]

This has been on my mind recently because I have realised that I don't trust men I don't know. I've been brought up not to (Stranger Danger! Mum always said if you get lost, approach a woman not a man etc) and my experiences with strange (as in strangers) men have been unpredictable....it was hard to explain which is why I didn't post until now, when I saw this post on Jezebel which actually explains it well.
jezebel.com/5953909/look-guys-even-nice-can-be-annoying

Now, as usual for these kind of posts, I have to qualify what i'm about to say with - i'm not boasting or saying i'm ever so attractive [Samantha Brick].
So recently I gave some directions to a bloke in a car, when I was finished, he said "You look fantastic by the way", I put my head down and walked off. The other day in Wenzels, 2 builder blokes stared at me and one said Hi, I ignored it, looked the other way and left with my purchase. I was wondering about why and came to the conclusion that I must just be shy or weird but I think the article explains it much better than I can. I'm not shy. When I was single, I welcomed attention in bars and nightclubs as they were appropriate situations to be meeting new people in a meat market kind of a way! Plus I was with my friends. But when i'm just trying to get on with my life, it's not worth engaging.

I dunno, this is a kind of outpouring of poorly formed thoughts that have been swirling round in my head over the last few weeks. If anyone has any thoughts, please come and talk to me about it!

Haha. That's great, Walter!

The response I've found best to comments like "smile/cheer up" is just completely ignoring and I mean completely as though the person isn't there at all. I'm often switched off when walking down the street so it sometimes takes a few seconds for me to register being shouted at so the ignoring thing comes naturally - IME it just makes the man look like a raving lunatic, shouting in the street at someone who doesn't even know he's there :) I've also managed to ignore men actually talking to me (when on a night out) - it gets sort of comic really. A lot of men start mumbling to themselves as if they hadn't been talking to me at all. Or they just sort of stop talking and look deflated. Ignoring is really powerful, it's a very big put down, plus they can't fight against it because it's a non-entity. It's very hard though - you can't have any eye contact at all or you invite the nasty comments. You also have to maintain a neutral expression. I've noticed female friends of mine unconsciously slow down or start to look scared if a group of men approaches them. That too invites more attention. I just keep on walking, right through them. It is surprising how well it works. The strong message it sends is "Why the fuck would I even look at you?"

I have read this thread with interest. I have a beautiful, well developed almost 14 yr old daughter ( who happens to be intelligent, funny, and independent) I chose to focus on her looks, because I am beginning to observe other people focusing on her looks and her body. She has been leered at and approached by men much older ( even whilst wearing a Catholic school uniform, which should signal that she is a child) I am teaching her that her body is not a commodity, that she alone decides with whom she would like to share it with. I feel a certain amount of despair though, that as much education I give her, she will still be subject to unwanted attention or worse. I totally get what OP is saying.

Some fantastic discussion here Thank You! A lot of you understand precisely what I?m on about.

I think it is difficult for men to understand because in isolation, those instances I described are negligible. However it comes in a context of a barrage of behaviours I?ve been on the receiving end of.

I?m not here to be evaluated and since when is it acceptable to comment on how random strangers look? Would he say ?You look shit today, by the way? If he did not approve? And he knows NOTHING about me except for how I look and that I gave him directions, and I knew NOTHING about him except for that he drives a car and was mildly lost. Schroedingers rapist was a very insightful link.

And I?ve spoken in a friendly way to strange men before, when I say I have a partner they finish the conversation there and then with an insinuation that I?ve wasted their time; when I basically say I?m not interested they carry on as if they actually didn?t hear me, as if that isn?t a valid reason in itself. I am polite, I don't want to be rude to anyone, I shouldn't have to be and I refuse to be dragged down to their level.

"they're not doing it to be kind, they're doing it because they want something from you."

This is the message I have received from them over the years. Apart from being intimidated and freaked out by the builders (wearing high vis jackets, one carrying a hard hat ? probable job titles included for descriptive purposes only!) watching me in the shop, experience has told me that they?re not just being friendly but they have an ulterior motive. I don't want to find out what that is hence, I ignored them.

If I was single and up for meeting potential romantic partners in random places, they would know! I wouldn?t be looking the other way or at the floor, I?d be making eye contact, smiling, etc. In my experience it is VERY obvious when someone wants to be left alone. It is very unfortunate that I feel that I have to make it VERY obvious. In an ideal world, I would talk to random men as well as women, it would be nice and sociable but honestly, I don?t want to receive comments on how I look, don?t want to be asked out and don?t want to waste anyone's time. I?ve been properly laid into for thinking I was ?too good? or whatever for someone I failed to show an interest in. I don?t need random people to have a go at me, so I guess I?ve learned to avoid potential situations reoccurring. Funnily enough, i've never had this kind of feedback from women so that's why this conversation isn't about that.

I?ve been wolf whistled, groped and worse by strange men but these things are obviously offensive imo which is why I was wondering about these less obviously offensive things.

Cynister - Get her to read "Living Dolls" by Natasha Walters. It made the scales fall from my eyes. I think it was then that I realised why I was uncomfortable and also, that it wasn't about me as a person but about a flimsy, narrow notion of beauty and women's value. I

Thank you so much for the recommendation, msrisotto. I am going to check out amazon right now.

Awesome, It should be compulsory reading for all IMO!

in my teens i remember the feeling of being aware of being looked at, to the point that, moving, I could see my self as though through others' eyes, and so kind of otherised to myself if that makes sense

so, to let off steam, my best friend and i would go out cruising in her car and then shout stuff to lone men walking, or at bus stops, for the pleasure of seeing them jump, startled

childish but oh so satifying

it is a sense of entitlement. every day, i see people i think are attractivce, or ugly, or sad-looking or whatever, but i never presume to think myself entitled to comment. it is interseting how these comments serve to reinforce the idea that public spaces, and the freedom to move within them are the purview of men

This is a bit off topic, my apologies. I am grateful for threads like these. I never considered myself a feminist. I really believed feminism was about reactionary man hating screamy women. Topics like this and others I have found on MN have given me insight ..perhaps a clearer definition about feminism. I am ashamed to be admitting this, considering I have a Master's degree and worked for many years at a women's health care clinic.

I always felt uncomfortable with male attention. I used to walk to work taking the long way just to avoid a group of builders, for about six months, as their cat calls used to intimidate me so much and make me feel very exposed. I remember a few years ago standing at traffic lights and a white van with three men was waiting there also, and the foul language and suggestions they used against me humiliated me so much. It was a busy street - I just looked straight ahead and pretended they were not there, and also the people on the street staring at me because of this were not there either.

I used to wonder what was wrong with these types of men, that they couldn't walk a minute in my shoes and see how their behaviour came across to me and made me feel. But now I think, from reading this thread, that much of it was either deliberate humiliation of me, or else they wanted to come across a certain way to their 'mates'.

chibi, that sounds like my idea of fun...

This has kind of hit a nerve today, reading through it.I had my not-so-former stalker follow me around town yesterday. A step up from "unwanted attention". But to see people minimising "unwanted attention" is kinda fucking annoying. It's simple as this, men. If women are showing no signs they want to interact with you, then leave them alone. Likewise, if you aren't sure if they want you to interact with them, don't jump in with "Awight gorgeous," or "smile, it might never happen" or so forth. And if they ask you to leave them alone, look at you with a glazed over look, try and make excuses to leave, then realise your male privelige and leave them the frig alone.

Cat callers are a pain in the arse. I am now in the age of invisibility (thank heavens) but many years ago I had an obscene comment made to me by white van man passenger paused at the traffic lights with his window down. I just happened to be hurrying for a train and carrying a red hot beaker of coffee.
Open window, his lap, problem sorted. Bet he didn't do that again in a hurry. Stupid bastard.

It's never bothered me but women should not be subjected to it. I agree that ignoring is often the best way as in a sense you are implying you are a piece of dog dirt on my shoe which I do not even deem to consider.

No one should have to but it's not that hard to avoid it. People wear a burkha or cut their hair very short and wear dungarees/vicar's wife look etc. In fact dress like a man and you might avoid it, not that women ought to be subject to having to change how they look.

I often in total charge of the space I am in the highest paid person around and that has changed (a) how men react to me and (b) how I feel about any attention - even less bothered than I ever was.

cynister, a pretty 14 year old girl in a Catholic school uniform is not going to attract less attention because of that surely, but more given how so many men are. It is certainly something people need to talk to their children about. My parents had us learn judo.

"This is a bit off topic, my apologies. I am grateful for threads like these. I never considered myself a feminist. I really believed feminism was about reactionary man hating screamy women. Topics like this and others I have found on MN have given me insight ..perhaps a clearer definition about feminism. I am ashamed to be admitting this, considering I have a Master's degree and worked for many years at a women's health care clinic. "

Hi cynister, welcome to the feminist boards! There are some amazing women on here who have opened my eyes to all sorts of things - or articulated feelings I have always had but never been able to express.

Frankly, I don't think there is a right way or wrong way to respond to unwanted intrusions from men who believe they are entitled to a smile, a response, a thank you, a date, a grope, or whatever. Unless they get what they seek, they probably won't be happy. Some will shrug it off and let it go, others will become violent and there will be gradients in between.

Has anyone yet posted a link to the excellent blog on rape fugitivus.wordpress.com/2009/06/26/another-post-about-rape-3/ . I think it's quite relevant here.

Also, Skepchick uproar www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/10/sexism_in_the_skeptic_community_i_spoke_out_then_came_the_rape_threats.html is interesting. Using an example of unwanted male attention at a convention led to an outpouring of vile comments and sexual threats against Rebecca Watson.

Sorry about the links above!

Fugitivus Blog on Rape fugitivus.wordpress.com/2009/06/26/another-post-about-rape-3/

Rebecca Watson's Article in Slate www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/10/sexism_in_the_skeptic_community_i_spoke_out_then_came_the_rape_threats.html

Thanks KRITIQ. I've read the fugitivus before but that one from Rebecca Watson is new and makes me

That Richard Dawkins comment really takes the .

RD's dismissal of someone else's harassment as being a first world problem, shows his complete lack of empathy with anyone else. Worse still is that RD's crassness is then picked up as being a licence to threaten by the pack mentality of those men via the anonymity of the Internet. They feel they have been given permission to be vile.

greenhill The skeptic feminism community has its own issues; ISTR some of the ire also directed at the woman (who wore the Skeptic not a Skepchick Tshirt) at a conference following this incident.

I feel a bit boggled and by those links onemorechap.

I agree, there a lot of issues out there, and a lot of fragmentation of opinion/ splitting of hairs that I had no idea about. I think I might go back to lurking, rather than commenting. I feel my opinions are too simplistic for the FWR threads and I need to read up more

I do wish Richard Dawkins would stick to talking about things that he actually knows something about.

The tricky think is that any time a woman speaks out about sexism within a social or political group (e.g. trade union, political party, interest group, etc.) there will be some women who will be pleased that the subject has been broached and others who wish they'd kept their mouth shut because they feel that at least they are able to manoeuvre around the sexism and not let it "get to them," so why shouldn't other women do the same. They would argue that the women who speak out make it bad for other women who get tarred with the same "troublemaker" brush and that it creates divisions and diverts from whatever the "cause" is. Basically, they believe their own and the group's interests are best served if prejudice and marginalisation are ignored in favour of more important "ideals."

This is just a thing that happens in groups. Same thing happens when someone raises the issue of racism, or disability discrimination, or another form of marginalisation or its counterpart privilege. It's not unique to skepticism, by any stretch of the imagination.

I can understand Watson's frustration with the response to her raising the issue of sexism though. She no doubt genuinely believed that the movement she supported, based on rational thought and action, would be more willing to embrace the concept of gender equality and more willing to reflect on what might be deterring women from becoming involved and/or marginalising them in the group. But, as with left-of-centre groups, animal rights and environmental movements and new-age type philosophies, just because it appears that they should be more inclusive doesn't mean that they will be any more so than any other grouping.

greenhill

I think I might go back to lurking, rather than commenting.

please don't! I certainly learn from everything folk post, and I'm certaibly getting my views formed here - well, some formed, some confirmed, and some reformed if you know what I mean.