Understanding how 'positive' attention is still unwelcomed.

[msrisotto]

This has been on my mind recently because I have realised that I don't trust men I don't know. I've been brought up not to (Stranger Danger! Mum always said if you get lost, approach a woman not a man etc) and my experiences with strange (as in strangers) men have been unpredictable....it was hard to explain which is why I didn't post until now, when I saw this post on Jezebel which actually explains it well.
jezebel.com/5953909/look-guys-even-nice-can-be-annoying

Now, as usual for these kind of posts, I have to qualify what i'm about to say with - i'm not boasting or saying i'm ever so attractive [Samantha Brick].
So recently I gave some directions to a bloke in a car, when I was finished, he said "You look fantastic by the way", I put my head down and walked off. The other day in Wenzels, 2 builder blokes stared at me and one said Hi, I ignored it, looked the other way and left with my purchase. I was wondering about why and came to the conclusion that I must just be shy or weird but I think the article explains it much better than I can. I'm not shy. When I was single, I welcomed attention in bars and nightclubs as they were appropriate situations to be meeting new people in a meat market kind of a way! Plus I was with my friends. But when i'm just trying to get on with my life, it's not worth engaging.

I dunno, this is a kind of outpouring of poorly formed thoughts that have been swirling round in my head over the last few weeks. If anyone has any thoughts, please come and talk to me about it!

Eurgh, bloke in a pub the other week. Asked me to go home with him, got a firm "no thank you".

Then spent an hour complaining to the pub loudly that I wasn't smiling, that I looked miserable as sin, why did I look so mardy etc

My friend announced in a stage whisper that he had seemed perfectly happy with my face until I told him I wasn't going to sleep with him.

And after he STILL wouldn't shut up, I said to his embarrassed looking mate in a very loud voice "God, isn't he BORING? Does he always go on like this or is it because he can't handle his beer?"

He fucked off. But I shouldn't have had to go that far. I wasn't mean when I refused him, I was polite, but for some men the only acceptable response is "yes please!"

It is the sense of entitlement that it is OK to wolf-whistle/comment on appearance/start randomly chatting to a woman.

I haven't read the article, I will, but rushing out.

It's that sort of attention that I think of when I see women wearing a headscarf- I don't see 'I'm a victim of patriachal oppression' rather 'Here's a signal that I'm not interested in your attention even if you'd deem it positive'

Which is why I'm particularly anti the French stance on headscarf wearing, because most men don't behave like this here, whereas it's not the case in France.

Yes, just a reminder of who "owns" public spaces really.

(That was to Abigail, obv)

Yep that is a good way of putting it BOF.

However, I do think that popular culture has a lot to answer for. All that The Rules business, wait for a man to ask you, don't approach him etc etc means that a hell of a lot of men (and women) DO think it flattering and acceptable for a random man to say "Hi" and consider it no harm done.

They are unlikely to be found on this thread however...

helpyourself I agree, the harassment you can get from French men is insane compared to in England (in my experience). I've had some very aggressive encounters.

But I don't like the idea that the way to deter this is for women to wear headscarves. Men should just stop being such pigs really.

God yes colditz. I have been "chatted up" by men in pubs and been polite in rebuffing them and then had to endure an avalanche of abuse - and not just once or twice but on a pretty consistent basis throughout my adult life.

On one occasion, the man just refused to take no for an answer - I was polite, polite, polite and then I was less polite and in the end I had to tell him to Fuck OFF. I felt terrible about it - but I'm sure HE didn't feel awful about having harassed me stupid for 25 minutes.

Also, why do the men get to decide what is positive attention or not? Surely positivity is in the eye of the receiver? A treat isn't a treat unless someone likes it, yes?

A wolf whistle that means "I think you look attractive and pleasant today" to the man might mean "I want to draw attention to your gender and I don't care how you feel about that" to the woman receiving the attention.

I was parked in a service station car park; a man knocked on my car window and said "hello darling give us a smile" which I find a bit intimidating especially when there are 2 men and just me, when I didn't respond it was followed up with nasty comments on my "sour face" and "who'd want to be with that sour face anyway" shouted across the car park to his friend.
It was a nasty experience. The linked article captures it to a point, but a lot of men follow up a rebuff with a bad attitude which is malicious. Why should a woman have to smile for some random man because he demands it?

yy Joey an excellent example.

Maybe people of both genders could have a signifier that they are open to approaches? A red hat or something. That would save all the ag.

Hully it's true, there are always some posters on these threads that will pop up and say 'but I like being whistled at!'

Allowing those of us who don't like it to be painted as prudes, uptight, jealous, etc and so on.

Divide and rule, divide and rule

The whole "give us a smile" thing makes mme want to shout "FUCKING EARN ONE!"

x-post Hully, have you heard of traffic light parties? Where people wear green, red or yellow clothes

Green = single

Red = with someone

Yellow = it's complicated

Totally naff but a tad sensible really

That's why my idea is such a good one. Let's have an I'M Available Universal Signifier and anyone that flouts it isn't allowed to complain if they are shot.

I love that Dreaming!

I hadn't heard of it, but BRILL.

Snatch, correct - I would not feel threatened. I cannot understand the OP's feelings simply by putting myself in her place, hence my questions. I am not so crass as to feel that all men's comments all of the time are appropriate, or welcome, or necessary. That is why I directed my questions at the OP, rather than blethering on about why it is always acceptable. It isn't. I do have more questions, but I think some people are looking for an argument, so I will leave it.

Oh the "smile" thing gives me the rage! I had some aese say that to me 7 months pregnant with SPD whilst walking round the supermarket after a shit day at work. He got an earful back. Didn't make me feel better though as he just smirked. He got exactly the reaction he wanted.

It is intimidating and if you can't see that NCG then that is really your privilege getting in the way.

It's the arrogance of it that's really fucking depressing. The "I'm paying you a compliment, be grateful" train of thought.

The "Give us a smile!" or the "CHEER UP!" stuff is just bizarre really. I always feel like saying something like "My mum's just died actually" but then you're in a conversation with a turd.

People meet each other in all situations it isn't all clubs and pubs, the man in the car was talking to the OP and tells her she's looks fantastic during a conversation. I have seen relationships start from less I don't see why it's inappropriate.

colditz,post 10.53am
that is the problem isnt it
If whether the attention is positive or not,is down to the receiver, the person giving it has effectively approx a 50% chance of getting it right. He may not realise it. He probably used to have about a 75% chance of getting it right.
Would be interesting to know actually. If a man wolf whistles to someone in the street,how many react positively,and how many react negatively including the ones that igonre,which is effectively a negative response.

Yy shirley and why should you be forced to come up with an outrageous lie to explain why you are not smiling gratefully at some stranger's behest? It really narks me.