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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Should it be illegal for men to pay for prostitution?

999 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 31/08/2012 11:13

Should we criminalise all men who pay for prostitution, alongside help for women to leave prostituion?

OP posts:
Xenia · 08/09/2012 19:53

Of course we should not render it illegal to pay. People should be free to engage in this if they choose. Women who charge in some ways are better feminists and have a more morally acceptable life than a housewife providing sex to a husband in return for his keeping you which in feminist terms is arguably tantamount to prostitution but without the economic power. Let us rid the land of kept women/housewives before we consider stopping a fair trade. Why should they not pay?

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 08/09/2012 20:25

Hooray! That's what this delightful thread was missing. Xenia's here, with her slagging-off-other-women type of feminism. That's the best sort there is Smile. I admire your ability to turn any subject at all into an opportunity to have a pop at SAHM, Xenia.

Right ho, I'm off to sell a kidney on the black market. It's my very own empowerfulizing choice. Never let it be said I don't earn my keep.

(can someone please PM me when the p unternetters have gone home and this forum is once more not shit? I've run out of energy to debate with them. ta everso x)

wisdomoflollygag · 08/09/2012 20:36

I think the punters have gone! Either we've beaten them with our superior logic or they've gone for a fuck.

fridakahlo · 08/09/2012 21:07

Who on this thread has actually said that women should not be allowed to sell their bodies on MORAL grounds. From what I have read no-one ar any point has said that this is a moral issue.
The reason that I and other women think you should be able to prosecute men/ people for buying sex is because of the damage inflicted (emotionally/mentally/physically) on women/people at the other end of the deal.
Avaboos-did you suffer from any form of abuse as.a child? If the answer is no, then you are one of a tiny minority engaging in sex work.
Most people who engage in sex work have had an upbringing that has included abuse.

Malificence · 08/09/2012 22:06

This reply has been deleted

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exoticfruits · 08/09/2012 22:12

I think that you just have to ignore Xenia on housewives. You have to presume that sex is something dreadful that they wouldn't have to engage in if they had a high powered job. There is no mention that housewives are equal and may actually enjoy sex. (she lives in a very strange world!)

exoticfruits · 08/09/2012 22:13

I think that even the term 'housewife' is outdated.(Xenia's attitudes certainly are).

Gigabot9k · 09/09/2012 01:15

PlentyOfPubeGardens, it's funny you should use selling your kidney as an example of being abused, because lots of people give blood or organs for nice or charitable reasons and get paid for it.

It just goes to show how you can take anything and twist it to suit your argument; which is what most the anti prostitution arguments here have been doing.

Not everything is black and white; good and bad; pure and tainted; moral and immoral.

Prostitution has problems, but these are mostly brought about by the social and political stigma. A regulated industry could be on par with the masseuse industry, with safety paramount for all involved. Making something illegal, which has a constant demand, only hands it over to the criminal gangs on a silver plate.

Tortington · 09/09/2012 01:18

all the posts are so long.

so in brief

prostitutes shoudl be protected legally and all above board - laws and stuff

then if men pay - whatevs - its a personal relationship thing betwen partners and betraying fuckers

interestedpunter · 09/09/2012 03:20

Sorry; been spending quality time with the wife and children (despite the fact that I am betraying and sticking two fingers up at them). Not had much of a chance to post. Let me sort out the cognitive dissonance by doing some rationalising.

Up until my mid 30's I had the attitude of many on here, namely, that prostitutes were all drugged, pimped, trafficked streetwalkers; men who saw prostitutes were scummy dirty filth bags and that I would never ever sleep with prostitutes. The thought of sleeping with WG's "sickened me" and the stigma associated with prostitution was at the forefront of my mind. I'd like to say that that attitude existed for a variety of reasons including the religious upbringing I had had and also the views of my contemporaries (albeit, many of my male contemporaries now punting). I remember my dad and my best friend's dad telling me that they visited brothels/ WG's and I was really disgusted and had a debate with them about how prostitution humiliates and degrades women.

However, when I first took the plunge and punted all that changed. I immediately knew that punting was brilliant. I felt really stupid for having allowed the Stigma associated with prostitution and the views of my female contemporaries/ religious upbringing to prevent me from having started punting sooner. Basically, I love punting and that's why I now do it - nothing to do with my wife any more. She was just the catalyst or if you prefer my justification, for starting to punt.

And you want me to stop what I love for what reason? Because you claim that there are many trafficked/ pimped/ abused girls out there who are prostituting themselves? I just think the reason us punters don't agree with you is because we don't see that or get any sense of it. Now I am not saying we never see it but its really in a minority of cases. At a guess I have now punted on about 30 occasions and had lots of contact by email with more than 100 escorts. Out of all of those, there has been three girls where I turn up, they look like they have been through the wars (in terms of drugs/ drink/ alcohol/ life), there was the smell of pot or strange bruises/ needle marks on their arms and I have walked away. There was one other occasion where I booked a girl to my hotel room, she turned up, we had not had any sex and it was clear she was not interested. I had paid her and said to her that I did not want to go ahead. She refused to refund any money. I still asked her to leave and she did so.

Other than that most the girls I have seen have been really "normal" if there is such a thing. I usually have really long punts (i.e. over 10 hours) and as you can guess don't spend a majority of that time having sex. We usually go out for lunch/ dinner, chat, laugh, go out for drinks etc. and I'd like to think that i get to know the girls to some extent. I don't ever get a sense that they are doing anything against their will and always make clear to them that if there is anything they are uncomfortable with then they do not have to do the same. Most of the time they are the ones who decide to get naked and start dancing or run around naked on the balcony; they basically lead these things - I don't ask them to do it. If they are really hating what they are doing and fooling me at the same time then they are keeping that pretense up for an awfully long time. I am not saying you are wrong about women putting on a pretence; from experience I just doubt it.

Alternatively you argue that I lead a demand for sex which causes vulnerable women to be exploited in prostitution. Well as I have already pointed out I don't think punters see the vulnerable women that you speak about in prostitution that much so its from that standpoint difficult for us to see justification in your argument. The demand for "vulnerable women" is not that great in my experience.

Even if I am wrong and the demand was there, punting is a vocation just as burglary is a vocation to burglars. Do you really think that if you manage to eliminate the demand for prostitution for say, women who inject heroin into their body, they are suddenly going to become women who are not vulnerable and stop taking heroin? Or is their pimp/ SO etc going to push them into, for instance, the burglary vocation? That said, is your argument not akin to saying that we should not display expensive goods in a shop because there might be vulnerable people out there who see these good and might want to steal from those shops (thereby, causing themselves emotional harm)? If we take away the demand for expensive goods, surely, we'll stop the theft of those goods by vulnerable people? Not a good example but you get my drift.

SabrinaMulhollandJones I am sorry you feel I don't treat women as equals. It feels to me like you have made a sweeping generalisation simply from my treatment of my wife but fair enough; I appreciate you feel what I do is wrong.

carmenelectra in answer to your post, I hope that i get the opportunity when my children are older to discuss my punting with them just as my Dad did with me. I hope I will be open and honest with them (both my daughter and my son).

Finally, summerflower I don't consider that I ever "control" a womans body. A woman might agree to share her body with me in exchange for money. OK; that may still be an "unequal relationship" if the demand for her services is lower than the supply available (which is rarely the case so far as WG's are concerned in my experience - there is far more men looking to purchase sex than women willing to sell it - even in these tough times). But isn't the relationship between any seller of goods/ services and purchaser unequal? Lets assume that I go to a gardener, I am buying the gardeners services, I have the power, the more desperate a gardener is for the money the more services he/ she would be willing to offer; so if I was in the market for someone to just trim a tree and they agreed to also mow my lawn surely I've got the extra services because of the purchasing power I have?

fridakahlo · 09/09/2012 03:50

Interested, is your wife aware of the fact that you are using prostitutes?

exoticfruits · 09/09/2012 07:39

Would you be happy for your DD to be a prostitute, interestedpunter? If the answer is 'yes' I can accept your argument, but if it is OK for you use someone else's DD as a sexual object but wouldn't want your own DD for sale then I think that your attitude stinks. They are all someone's beloved DD, and if they are not they are damaged and need healing- not to be taken advantage of by someone who has the power.

wisdomoflollygag · 09/09/2012 09:05

I don't know a lot about prostitution but I've seen Pretty Woman.Julia Roberts tried 'real work' but she had to get up early and she didn't like her boss.It all worked out in the end though.

Xenia · 09/09/2012 09:14

I stand by the comment which is certainly not my idea. Woman gives sex for husband, does not earn a penny outside the home, provides cleaning and childcare services and he pays for her until he trades her in in her 40s for a younger model. You put out and he pays you. I don't see why any housewife who accepts that she is kept in that way is to different from a woman who is paid for sex except the latter bargain gives more power and control to the woman.

People that say would you be happy for your daughter (or indeed son) to be? If we talked about it and minimised risk. Huge numbers of British women live off male earnings, give sex in return for a pair of shoes within their marriage, use sex as a weapon within the marriage or a reward system - it's all over mumsnet. The fact that at present (although see my new feminism thread) men seem to want more sex than women and often have to pay for it whereas women can largely get it free whenever they want it (what Hakim calls the "sex deficit" is at the heart of this).

We need to ban much less and remove laws which restrict things rather than sit here trying to think of yet more activities to render illegal. This was supposedly the Government burning up existing laws. So far it has achieved little of that. Possibly from 2013 - 2015 the conservatories/extension planning change might be along those lines but very little else has been achieved in that respect. So much for the bonfire of the legislation which we all voted for. What about if they changed the law to mean that you could take a percentage of a prostitute's earnings? We could certainly burn up a lot of awful new Labour laws which criminalise holding of certain materials.

Gigabot9k · 09/09/2012 09:44

Xenia has a point; although not all marriages involve the woman being a housewife, a lot certainly do, and the only reason this 'contract' exists is because the man is getting what he wants (sex) and the woman is getting what she wants (lifestyle).

Would all the women here be happy if your DD got married and became a housewife? Would you see her as someone who was involved in an equal partnership? Or would you see her as someone who was trapped in despair?

SabrinaMulhollandJones · 09/09/2012 09:45

Well, all I can say from reading these is that I am shocked and saddened by the skewed attitudes some people have about relationships. Debasing a relationship down to 'it's an exchange of goods and services for sex' is simply not how I can see the world. O am on a relationship of equals, we both contribute. We both enjoy sex - it's not something I 'give' to my husband. It's mutual.

Interestedpunter, I'm afraid your posts leave an increasingly bad taste in my mouth- you realise that a minority of men use prostitutes? The damage goes far beyond social stigma, but you are just trying to sanitise and normalise it. Because then you can continue to enjoy your little double life.

Presumably, as you enjoy punting so much, you will be in a perfect position to give your daughter the best careers advice into a glittering career as a call girl?

wisdomoflollygag · 09/09/2012 09:51

Interetedpunter left a bad taste in Sabrinas mouth.

Gigabot9k · 09/09/2012 09:53

Sabrina, how would you explain the phenomenon of women divorcing their husbands if he loses his job?

Sounds like the women expected an income, and when that income didn't arrive, they voted with their feet and left the marital home.

Don't have to answer if you don't want to, but does your husband earn more than you? Did he earn more than you when you met him?

SabrinaMulhollandJones · 09/09/2012 09:54

Giga ses to be under the misapprehension that the only thing a man gets out of a relationship is sex- a very sad and misogynist way to see women.

Gigabot9k · 09/09/2012 10:01

No Sabrina, I've had gf's before and got much more than sex; I got companionship and someone to share experiences with.

It is you who is under the misapprehension than all marriages are an exact carbon copy of yours. They are not, some are based on the give and take of resources, even if yours may not be (although if you looked deeply into your relationship, you may find that it actually is).

Humans are still animals Sabrina, and we still follow some of the basic instincts laid down in our distant past, no matter how much we wish we didn't. Women typically go for men with status symbols such as an expensive car or expensive clothes or expensive education. Men typically go for women who are attractive and will be good in bed.

wisdomoflollygag · 09/09/2012 10:04

That's not always the case Gigabot.I'm a typical man and my wifes not attractive OR good in bed.

SabrinaMulhollandJones · 09/09/2012 10:05

Gigs- I'll answer one of your questions- when I met my husband we were both university students. So I guess I got lucky and fell for a man who does see women as equals, and has the intelligence to not view women as some sort of sub-species that you get sex from.

SabrinaMulhollandJones · 09/09/2012 10:11

And gigs, you would debase all men down to their basic animalistic instincts. Not all men are like you- remember that punters are a small minority of men. They seek to normalise punting as a justification for what they do.

Gigabot9k · 09/09/2012 10:18

I used the word "typically" in my post. I did not say that all men or women behave this way.

Have any of you been out on a Friday or Saturday night? Did you not notice the attention that attractive females get compared to their less attractive friends?

Gigabot9k · 09/09/2012 10:20

I'm pretty sure the average wealthy footballer gets more sexual attention from females than a guy who works the counter in a builders yard.