To all those people who have an issue with trans people - please read this

[enimmead]

This is from a transwoman who has been jailed for 41 months. A black transwoman in the USA. I don't know if she is guilty or not. She was at a bar when a bunch of thugs started harassing her. The fact that they had Neo Nazi links was inadmissable in court. A glass got broken and a fight broke out. Ce Ce has been found guilty of stabbing someone and killing him - 41 months in jail (don't worry, it's a male jail).

This is from her blog:

supportcece.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/as-long-as-we-live-in-fear-we-live-in-ignorance/

To the many of us who have struggled, being of the GLBTQ community, this is for you. To those who have triumphed over the idea of conforming to this fascist, hateful society, this is for you. But most importantly, this is for all of our loved ones who have become victims of hate crimes and domestic violence being of the GLBTQ community, specifically Trans men and women, who are singled out and have the highest percentage of victims of hate crimes and domestic violence. My love and prayers go out to the families and loved ones of those who have lost a friend, a brother or sister, a mother or father, an auntie, uncle or cousin, or a partner or spouse to this epidemic. To all those unfortunate cases, this is for you.

In the memories of those who we have lost, it is our duty to put an effort to make a change. We should not have to sit back in the fear of our own lives and well being, or the lives and well being of those we love and care for due to the hate that exist and threatens our safety. We should not have to mourn for the lives of the people we love and have lost due to hate and careless acts. We have to stand up against those who put us down and try to oppress us. We have to enlighten the neophobics of this world and to help them realize the vast and diverse world we live in. because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance.

I thank the lord everyday for keeping me here and giving me such a profound mouth and mind to share my experiences and the trials and tribulations I?ve overcame, because honestly, I never thought I would make it past my 16th birthday. To grow up and have that thought at a young age is unsettling. The thought or feeling of knowing or expecting that today could be my last day on earth, only because someone hates me for being the person I felt would make my life happiest, or for being in an abusive and controlling relationship with someone who has no regards or remorse as to how they treat their partner is an unsettling thought. But it?s more unsettling to know that this is our reality, and that these are the issues we have to face on a day-to-day basis. And even with all that we choose to live our lives, and to continue living them proudly with gumption, bravery, and love in our minds and hearts. I know I still have faith in people, and am willing to make a change if they are willing as well.

We all grow up in different communities, with different social categorizations, but when it comes to being GLBTQ, sometimes we?re excluded and put into a category of it?s own, that is demeaning and belittling, and that no matter where you are we are singled out. I grew up in a community that was predominately African-American people. And with the fact of me just being a minority in this society was bad, being African American and trans is an ultimate challenge. I can remember having loaded guns being put to my head and being beat until bloody. Or walking downs the street and being yelled ? a faggot?. I thought because of their ignorance I decided to change my surroundings. So I moved to a suburban community, which were predominately white people. Then, I remember people grabbing their purses and children, like I was a thief and was going to steal their money and kids, and to still be yelled ?queer? or ?faggot?, which made me feel upset and that my efforts of leaving one community to another, went without victory. Also being a victim of domestic violence was also an issue that I had to deal with in my early teenage years. And fortunately I got out of that situation.

The point I was trying to make was that no matter where you go, or community you live in, people will continue to discriminate. And as long as we do not stand up for our equality, we allow them to have the upper hand against us. We allow for them to feel that?s its okay to verbally and physically attack us. And I feel that it is our duty to give these people the awareness and education about whom we truly are, and not whom they assume we are. We have to make sure that we won?t lose any more of our loved ones due to hate crimes and domestic violence. These problems are often over-looked when it comes to GLBTQ people because people feel that it isn?t as important if it happened to a straight person. Which is ironic because these problems affect us disproportionately. I feel that it is our duty to change the minds of those neophobics, because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance.

We have to be the matriarchs of this society. To start teaching our younger generations about hate, and why it?s so important not to hate. We have to end the bullying and harassment in our school systems. To organize more community actions and awareness about hate crimes and how to stop them from happening. We need to be leaders and role models for all to learn from. And from that we would be able to help and comfort someone who is unsure about his or her own sexual identity and preference. We will be able to eliminate people?s fears of being victims of hate crimes and domestic violence. To help someone to accept and be comfortable as whomever they choose to be, with no judgments or stereotypic labels attached.

And to all my brothers and sisters of the GLBTQ community, this is for us all. This is for those who are still here, and for those who have passed. With love and determination we can be the leaders. We can make a change. Because, see, what people fail to realize is that, even through their hate, bigotry, conforming, and biased views and actions that are enforced upon us,? love is inevitable and overcomes any and all things. And as long as love is in our mind and hearts, it can show us, even in fear, how to be leaders and role models, to be the leaders to show how to overcome the hate and oppression. Love is powerful enough to change the hearts of the neophobics in this world. Because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance."

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There has been so much hatred and ignorance spouted on this forum and i think some people forget trans people are people who deserve our humanity and support, not our ill informed bile and bigotry. I have been shocked at the level of anger on this thread. I have friends who are trans and they just want to exist and be accepted as people. There are a minority of activists who affect what everyone else does.

You may not accept what they believe. You may not accept the terminology. But accept they are people who are just trying to survive in a very difficult world.

eats - now you're onto genderqueer which is not what I perceive a TS to be.

All the TS people who I know want hormones, are desperate to see a doctor and some want surgery.

Then you have androgenous people, genderqueer people - the whole spectrum of gender expression.

I know no TS person who is happy to keep their body as it is.

That's a good link . Thank you .

Ex doesn't quite fit into a neat category .

He dresses as a woman , part time.
Gets a sexual buzz from it.
Has a girls name for when he does this .
Has sexual relationships with both men and women , none ever last very long ( I think ours was longest to date) .
Has mentioned getting his penis cut off ( once during an argument)
Demanded that I dressed like his other persona at all times.( full make up ,garish clothes preferably dresses and skirts,high heels ....never jeans and tshirt)
Has homophobic ,bigoted family.
Is often depressed , and has been suicidal .
Was very violent and controlling during our marriage.
Is alcoholic .
His mum tried to get him sectioned when he was 15 . ( this didn't come out until we were divorcing )

And you only have to read some trans forums to see how divided they are on TS, TV, Drag queens, pre-op, post-op, primary and secondary transsexuals.

Debate is fierce in that community with fundamentalist difference of opinions.

how confusing. so someone who says 'i am trans', isn't trans unless they are taking hormones/having surgery?

is that maybe a tiny bit presumptuous and arrogant of you to assume that you know better than these people how to name their own experiences?

Droves, I'm in a not too disimilar situation. I have a sibling who is mtf and I admit to struggling with it because of my shared past and how I have been rejected.

I echo what Eclectric AND EatsBrainsAndLeaves say. I think you should be on these threads, but I don't think you should be using them to educate yourself. There is far too much ignorance on the subject here and your comment about not knowing the difference also highlights your own.

You need to educate yourself from specialist websites and other sources rather than MN. THEN use the forums here as a point of debate about it. I really think you need to expand where you are getting your information from, as it does sound like you are using only MN atm.

You have emotions involved here that other people don't and I think its difficult to deal with at times - a sense of 'failure' and/or 'rejection'. Please try and really look into the issue away from MN and the feminist angle.

enim - Perhaps you should talk to more Trans people then and read more Trans people's stories on the internet. Trans only criteria is that you think you are Transsexual and that if you have a biological male body you are really are a woman and vice cersa. You do not have to agree to take hormones to be considered Transsexual.

There are Trans people say with a male biological body who argue that they are a woman, thsi si the body they have, so it is obviously a wsoman's body.

I suspect you haven't actually met many Trans people or read many of their stories if you think hormones or surgery are necessary to be Trans.

I agree, I think most trans would want access to hormones at least but I don't think that's good enough when it comes to drafting laws. I think laws have to be drafted very carefully to avoid unintended consequences. As the law stands, anybody at all can claim to be transsexual and will be protected by law if they decide to access services or spaces intended for the opposite biological sex.

"I echo what Eclectric AND EatsBrainsAndLeaves say. I think you should be on these threads, but I don't think you should be using them to educate yourself. There is far too much ignorance on the subject here and your comment about not knowing the difference also highlights your own. "

Hmm- I actually said that of course Droves was welcome on these threads. I did not say the rest and resent the impication that I did.

Gosh Doves - you have had a lot to deal with. And I can see how you might be affected by all that.

There is a group of men who do get sexual pleasure from dressing up in womens clothes.

TS people do have suicidal tendencies and often resort to try to prove they are real men by joining the Forces or acting all macho.

Depression and drink are common.

That does not make him TS.

I do not understand why he would want you to dress up as his fantasy.

He needs help. I hope he got it. I also hope you are ok. The mind and how it operates is very strange sometimes.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves I owe you an apology if it came across like that. It wasn't intended. I was trying to combine the fact that I felt you were both right rather than that you were contridictary.

eats Ok - maybe I should go and meet more trans people and chat online to find out more.

Are there any good websites?

^

Thank you Hmm

chibi

Twisting words again - I said trans people want hormones. Some want surgery.

That does not mean you are not trans untill you have those.

??? Beach? Is that you trying to be clever? The pick-and-mix of other people's postings, to avoid a political point being made?

nnhs-gsa.org/transwhat/debunked/

This website debunks Trans myths from a Trans supportive viewpoint. It says quite clearly that not all Trans people take hormones or undergo surgery.

and yet the two trans people that i knew did not want either of these things. they still self-identified as trans.

i really think there is something a bit off about you trying to name their experiences and lived reality for them

especially when you say things like 'trans people want' this - as though they are some kind of uniform monolith

it is actually a bit creepy tbh

Ya what Pan?

I was referring to my earlier post (BTW if your attack on dittany gets deleted it was me who reported it).

Gosh Pan - you personally attacked me the other day and here you are joining in the singling out of dittany on this thread with a personal attack.

Engage with the politics (all of you) and stop this attacking of a poster as a person because you don't agree with or understand her political viewpoint.

It is pathetic.

I just wondered if sniggering at another poster's reaction to being singled out for attack by a number of posters was you engaging with the politics. That's all.

I happen to know a lot of trans people. More than 2.
I know them in real life.
And for all of them, their goal is hormones.
Some want surgery.

But what do I know?

I'd said elsewhere that I have/had have personal contacts with 3 transsexual people, and they would all fall about laughing at some of the hyperbole being expressed by some posters on here re the 'threat' they present.
But after 1000's of posts in the past few weeks on this issue there's more heat than light being generated.

Pan - I agree entirely. My trans friends would also be surprised at the "threat" as well. But I think they would listen to the discussions and try to engage.

enim - Of course some Trans people want hormones and some want surgery. But Trans people are not a monolith. Trans people want and believe different things. I would prefer if you didn't post this is what Trans people want/think/believe. It is more accurate and respectful to say some tans people think/believe/want