To all those people who have an issue with trans people - please read this

[enimmead]

This is from a transwoman who has been jailed for 41 months. A black transwoman in the USA. I don't know if she is guilty or not. She was at a bar when a bunch of thugs started harassing her. The fact that they had Neo Nazi links was inadmissable in court. A glass got broken and a fight broke out. Ce Ce has been found guilty of stabbing someone and killing him - 41 months in jail (don't worry, it's a male jail).

This is from her blog:

supportcece.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/as-long-as-we-live-in-fear-we-live-in-ignorance/

To the many of us who have struggled, being of the GLBTQ community, this is for you. To those who have triumphed over the idea of conforming to this fascist, hateful society, this is for you. But most importantly, this is for all of our loved ones who have become victims of hate crimes and domestic violence being of the GLBTQ community, specifically Trans men and women, who are singled out and have the highest percentage of victims of hate crimes and domestic violence. My love and prayers go out to the families and loved ones of those who have lost a friend, a brother or sister, a mother or father, an auntie, uncle or cousin, or a partner or spouse to this epidemic. To all those unfortunate cases, this is for you.

In the memories of those who we have lost, it is our duty to put an effort to make a change. We should not have to sit back in the fear of our own lives and well being, or the lives and well being of those we love and care for due to the hate that exist and threatens our safety. We should not have to mourn for the lives of the people we love and have lost due to hate and careless acts. We have to stand up against those who put us down and try to oppress us. We have to enlighten the neophobics of this world and to help them realize the vast and diverse world we live in. because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance.

I thank the lord everyday for keeping me here and giving me such a profound mouth and mind to share my experiences and the trials and tribulations I?ve overcame, because honestly, I never thought I would make it past my 16th birthday. To grow up and have that thought at a young age is unsettling. The thought or feeling of knowing or expecting that today could be my last day on earth, only because someone hates me for being the person I felt would make my life happiest, or for being in an abusive and controlling relationship with someone who has no regards or remorse as to how they treat their partner is an unsettling thought. But it?s more unsettling to know that this is our reality, and that these are the issues we have to face on a day-to-day basis. And even with all that we choose to live our lives, and to continue living them proudly with gumption, bravery, and love in our minds and hearts. I know I still have faith in people, and am willing to make a change if they are willing as well.

We all grow up in different communities, with different social categorizations, but when it comes to being GLBTQ, sometimes we?re excluded and put into a category of it?s own, that is demeaning and belittling, and that no matter where you are we are singled out. I grew up in a community that was predominately African-American people. And with the fact of me just being a minority in this society was bad, being African American and trans is an ultimate challenge. I can remember having loaded guns being put to my head and being beat until bloody. Or walking downs the street and being yelled ? a faggot?. I thought because of their ignorance I decided to change my surroundings. So I moved to a suburban community, which were predominately white people. Then, I remember people grabbing their purses and children, like I was a thief and was going to steal their money and kids, and to still be yelled ?queer? or ?faggot?, which made me feel upset and that my efforts of leaving one community to another, went without victory. Also being a victim of domestic violence was also an issue that I had to deal with in my early teenage years. And fortunately I got out of that situation.

The point I was trying to make was that no matter where you go, or community you live in, people will continue to discriminate. And as long as we do not stand up for our equality, we allow them to have the upper hand against us. We allow for them to feel that?s its okay to verbally and physically attack us. And I feel that it is our duty to give these people the awareness and education about whom we truly are, and not whom they assume we are. We have to make sure that we won?t lose any more of our loved ones due to hate crimes and domestic violence. These problems are often over-looked when it comes to GLBTQ people because people feel that it isn?t as important if it happened to a straight person. Which is ironic because these problems affect us disproportionately. I feel that it is our duty to change the minds of those neophobics, because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance.

We have to be the matriarchs of this society. To start teaching our younger generations about hate, and why it?s so important not to hate. We have to end the bullying and harassment in our school systems. To organize more community actions and awareness about hate crimes and how to stop them from happening. We need to be leaders and role models for all to learn from. And from that we would be able to help and comfort someone who is unsure about his or her own sexual identity and preference. We will be able to eliminate people?s fears of being victims of hate crimes and domestic violence. To help someone to accept and be comfortable as whomever they choose to be, with no judgments or stereotypic labels attached.

And to all my brothers and sisters of the GLBTQ community, this is for us all. This is for those who are still here, and for those who have passed. With love and determination we can be the leaders. We can make a change. Because, see, what people fail to realize is that, even through their hate, bigotry, conforming, and biased views and actions that are enforced upon us,? love is inevitable and overcomes any and all things. And as long as love is in our mind and hearts, it can show us, even in fear, how to be leaders and role models, to be the leaders to show how to overcome the hate and oppression. Love is powerful enough to change the hearts of the neophobics in this world. Because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance."

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There has been so much hatred and ignorance spouted on this forum and i think some people forget trans people are people who deserve our humanity and support, not our ill informed bile and bigotry. I have been shocked at the level of anger on this thread. I have friends who are trans and they just want to exist and be accepted as people. There are a minority of activists who affect what everyone else does.

You may not accept what they believe. You may not accept the terminology. But accept they are people who are just trying to survive in a very difficult world.

Does that mean that you think that a person with a penis, testes, a prostrate and no uterus, ovaries, vagina or XX chromosomes is a woman? That such a person is exactly the same as a biological women? Yes or No?

No, they are not exactly the same and their life experiences, their biology, behaviour and their treatment under the law differs vastly.

Saying I would counter your points is not "promising to go after you".

I note that you haven't acknowledged my post about the Marissa Alexander case, but are super quick to make this thread all about you. Again.

Can someone clear something up for me ? It's an honest question .

What's the difference between a full time transvestite and a transsexual person?

"maybe this is the way forward, for public spaces - to just totally degenderise"

I thankfully have never experienced male violence but I fear I may actually be in a minority and even I think that shared spaces can place women at a disadvantage and acknowledge that some women would feel very vulnerable.

Until we in all actuality reach a point where women are not the victims of male violence then degendered spaces are not viable.

About 2 years :)

Droves, why are you even discussing trans if you don't have a grasp of the basic concept?

droves, I'd rather disabled changing spaces and toilets and the rest were kept for their original purposes rather than being used as a solution to a tricky problem.
trans-people are not disabled.

Bother.
I meant that being a transsexual isn't a disability. Of course there may be tran-people who are disabled.

Droves I think that is a very interesting question actually.

I'm really interested in replies (everybody police their thoughts watch what they say now - it is very tricky to answer this question without being transphobic I think).

Unless of course you engage in double think mental gymnastics and answer - male transvestites are men and MTF transsexuals are women.

i think if the goal here is to silence dissent, then mission accomplished. we have had posters implying that MNers are probably inciting violence against trans people on other boards, or being violent ourselves, we have posters being attacked personally (all of those attacking dittany) we have random internet nonsense being thrown at women who identify as feminists who are then told to justify it, as if they have any responsibility for it, or in fact anything to do with it at all, posters told they are homophobes, and using hate speech when they say things like 'there are times when xx women need to meet amogst themselves to discuss things that afect them'

all of this despite posters saying repeatedly that they understand that most trans people just want to get by, that they do not advocate violence or hate toward them.

i really don't think there is anything left to say.

it would be really great if those of you who are concerned about bridge building and are against hate speech checked out a current thread about how being drunk doesn't mean you deserve to be raped. there is a lot of hateful stuff going on there, mostly left to stand. i guess it's educational.

me, i sure am learning a lot the last few days

I guess the difference is that a Trans person say MtoF would say they are really a woman, whereas a transvestite would say they are really a man.

To the observer - no difference at all.

iamtransgendered.com/Transsexuals_Transvestites_Transgendered.aspx

This might be a starting point...I think it has a good explanation. The power of the internet eh...

Eclectic I have lived with the basic concept for 10 years until I divorced him .
I have my own opinions on what I actually think my ex is , I just wanted to ask an question to see if someone else confirmed my suspicions .

I am asking because I have children with this person , and eventually I might have to have a talk about them as to why my first marriage did not work .
Having said that , also for my own sake , I'd like to understand why I wansnt enough for him ?. If its because he is really Ts and not just Tv then I will have a degree of sympathy and forgiveness for my ex . If he was born this way , he couldn't have had a choice about it then could he ?

Perhaps it's wrong of me to hang about the trans threads , but I find it a good way of learning more .

Someone asked above why some posters only seem to post in FWR. I am one of those. I have been pretty much driven of the rest of MN by homophobia. In spite of accusations by some posters that those who are trans critical are homophobic, FWR is the only space in MN that seems to be pretty much free of that.

Droves - Of course its not wrong for you to hang about Trans threads

About 2 years

Not anymore. The difference is now solely down to how a person defines themself. This is from a Home Office leaflet:

Who is protected?
The Act provides protection for transsexual people ? people who are proposing to undergo, are undergoing or have undergone the process of changing their sex. These people have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

The process of gender reassignment may involve different stages, from change of name, title and/or appearance through to surgical intervention. But the Act does not require a person to be under medical supervision to be protected, so a woman who decides to live permanently as a man but who does not undergo any medical procedures will be protected.

A wide range of people are included in the terms ?trans? or ?transgender?, such as people who crossdress only on an occasional basis and other people who may identify as neither men nor women but somewhere in between.

Only transsexual people are explicitly protected under the Act. However, if a person who cross-dresses, for example, is discriminated against because they are wrongly thought to be transsexual, they will be protected under the Act.

What has changed?
The range of transsexual people who are protected has been extended slightly. To qualify for protection, a transsexual person will no longer have to show that they are under medical supervision. This means that a person who has changed their gender without seeing a doctor will now be protected, though under previous discrimination law they were not.

Droves, that's a difficult situation for you. I'm not sure this is the place to learn more about this topic, I'm sure there are plenty of other sites where the majority of contributors actually know what they are talking about have some experience of it.

I would be surprised if a transsexual did not seek medical supervision.
I would be surprised if a transsexual who had changed their name and gender with organisations did not seek medical supervision.

Wouldn't you be - the goals of a transsexual are to get hormones, to be accepted and for some to get surgery.

So why would they not seek medical supervision?

there are some who don't. i knew 2 people when i was younger who were trans women, who did none of those things, and yet still identified as trans

Enim - No the goal of a transsexual is not to take hormones and get surgery. This is the goal for some transsexuals.

Some Transsexuals openly say they want to keep the body they have. Some say they are gender non conforming and dress androgonously or pretty much like a man.

Transsexuals form a very wide group of people are very different.

What chibi said so well.

i think if the goal here is to silence dissent, then mission accomplished. we have had posters implying that MNers are probably inciting violence against trans people on other boards, or being violent ourselves, we have posters being attacked personally (all of those attacking dittany) we have random internet nonsense being thrown at women who identify as feminists who are then told to justify it, as if they have any responsibility for it, or in fact anything to do with it at all, posters told they are homophobes, and using hate speech when they say things like 'there are times when xx women need to meet amogst themselves to discuss things that affect them'

all of this despite posters saying repeatedly that they understand that most trans people just want to get by, that they do not advocate violence or hate toward them.

Doves - if you read trans threads and speak to trans people, you will realise that they cannot help it.

There is no off switch. It is a state of mind. You can argue about how it happened but it exists, it's real and no one can explain why it is.

There is a difference between TS and TV. The only way to learn that difference is to talk to people in that situation to find out more.

That's one of the good things about the internet.

That's a real shocker, isn't it? Cross-dressers being 'protected' under the law against discrimination. Is there anyone who shouldn't be 'protected' in the extreme world view??