Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

631 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 19:25

This post is in response to another thread where posters wanted to discuss this, but didn't want to derail the thread. So I said I would start the thread here.

A basic element of feminism is that women and men are born as that sex - biologically men/women, but society socialises us to behave as our alloted gender. Gender is the idea that women and men behave in certain ways. And we are all socialised in this even if we reject it or try to as adults.

For example, research shows that people treat the same babies differently depending on whether they are told they are boys or girls. The media pumps images to our DCs about what a girl or a boy should be interested in, play with and wear. Teachers are more likely to allow boys to speak out to the whole class than girls - well researched.

Feminism challenges these gender constructs and says that girls and boys can enjoy doing the same things, etc. Transexuals talk about being born in the wrong body e.g. born in a male body, but feeling like they are really a girl/woman.

But this is obviously at odds with feminism. Sex is a biological fact. You are born in a male or female body. Behaving or feeling like a man/woman is supposed to feel, is an artificial construct. Because what does a man or woman feel like? We only feel like ourselves as individuals. So any idea of feeling a man or a woman or a boy or a girl is based on an artifacial idea of how a boy/girl is supposed to feel.

So the basic idea of being born in the wrong body, is contradictory to the basic ideas of feminism.

OP posts:
BusinessTrills · 07/05/2012 19:29

Sorry, but you've fallen at the first hurdle by claiming something to be a key element of feminism when actually it is something that not all feminists agree on.

A basic element of feminism is that women and men are born as that sex - biologically men/women, but society socialises us to behave as our alloted gender.

I think you'll find that not all people who call themselves feminists think that this is true. Some think that men and women are intrinsically different in behaviour and feeling as well as in physical form. Some think that men and women may be intrinsically different but that we don't know for sure to what degree or in what way.

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/05/2012 19:30

No, transgender people don't simply feel that they are treated or should behave differently because society says they should. They believe that they have the wrong sex organs. For them their biology is wrong.

BusinessTrills · 07/05/2012 19:31

I'll agree that it is very difficult to say "I feel like a women" when you don't really know what other people who are women "feel like" and what other people who are men "feel like".

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 19:33

Business Trills - Fair enough, some feminists do believe there are differences in behaviour because of biology. I guess what I was trying to say is there a difference between sex which is a biological body and gender which is a social construct.

Dione - I know they believe they have the wrong sex organs. But that doesn't mean they are right to believe that or that it is compatible with feminism

OP posts:
ThatGhastlyWoman · 07/05/2012 19:45

I don't really think that it matters whether we approve, don't approve, or are neutral on the whole thing. People who are born transgender have an extremely hard time as it is, in the world in which we live. (As distinct from the one we might think we should live in.)

Not giving someone sh*t for having the guts to try to do something about it (whether because you're some queer-bashing cro-magnon bloke, or someone who does so out of a sense of political correctness) is simply being fair minded and human, in my opinion.

Of course, gender, biologically, is not as binary as we think. There are many people who are apparently one gender, superficially, but another biologically. Live and let live- it would be a boring world if we were all the same- but it can be a nicer world to be in if we remember to be a bit less sh*t to one another.

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/05/2012 19:47

Much work is done, especially in the UK to make sure they are right, before even hormones are prescribed, never mind surgery undertaken.
As I said, for transgender people, their own body is their primary issue, society's views are secondary.

I am a feminist because I believe in equal rights for all. This includes homosexuals, ethnic minorities and transgender people. I can't see how this issue is incompatible with feminism, unless feminism has come to mean superiority for those who think a certain way.

LineRunner · 07/05/2012 19:49

Gender is a social construct. But biology can also be a social construct.

ThatGhastlyWoman · 07/05/2012 19:56

Well said, Dione.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 20:15

Dione - theoretically the idea of being born in the wrong body or having the wrong sex organs is incompatible with feminism. What does being born in the wrong body or with the wrong sex organs mean? How do you know this is the case?

OP posts:
BusinessTrills · 07/05/2012 20:16

I think you'll need to explain further why, in your view, the concept of being born in the wrong body is incompatible with feminism.

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/05/2012 20:21

Eats, if you do not know what being born in the wrong body, with the wrong genitals means, then how do you know it is not compatible with feminism.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 20:26

Sorry thought I had - obviously not well enough though.

Woman and man is a biological fact. We know we have a girl or boy baby, except in the case of intersex, because the babies body is a boy or girls. If you have for example a male body but you feel you have the wrong body because you are really a woman, this presupposes that feeling like a woman is a real thing. It is not. We are all individuals. How one woman feels, behaves and thinks can be polar opposites to another woman.

So saying you feel like you are really a woman, is saying there is a way for a woman to feel. When in fact a key part I have always seen of feminism is that there are lots of ways for a woman to feel, many very different and at odds.

Not sure if that is any clearer?

OP posts:
EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 20:27

Dione - What I am saying is that I don't think it is possible to be born in the wrong body. It is possible of course to wish if you had been born a man that you were a woman and vice versa.

OP posts:
Nyac · 07/05/2012 20:29

Yes you're right.

Biology is real. Gender is a patriarchally created social consruct.

Feminism fights for the rights of women and girls (female humans), not those of males.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 20:30

Thank you NYAC - you put it much better than me

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 07/05/2012 20:33

No one has said that feminism had to fight for transgender people, i was just unaware that the two were not compatible. What about females who are born into the wrong body. Does feminism fight for them?

Sunscorch · 07/05/2012 20:33

You haven't explained why they can't individually feel like they should have been born with a body of the opposite sex.

Aboutlastnight · 07/05/2012 20:34

I think it's about how society treats you. Some people are happier bring treated as if they were someone of the opposite gender and want the experience to be real by changing their bodies. The fact that gender is a society construct us the whole point

Nyac · 07/05/2012 20:41

Yes feminism fights for all females.

Could you please explain what being "born into the wrong body" means?

How do you define "wrong body"?

Aboulastnight - the point about society putting people into gender boxes (sex roles) is that if people don't like it, they should fight society, not decide they are in the "wrong body".

AmberLeaf · 07/05/2012 20:43

I admit to struggling with the idea that a person feels like they are really a woman, yes how do you know what being a woman feels like?

I dont care what anyone wants to do with their own life/body but I certainly struggle with the idea that a born male can become a woman in any way other than on the surface.

the point about society putting people into gender boxes (sex roles) is that if people don't like it, they should fight society, not decide they are in the "wrong body" yes

KRITIQ · 07/05/2012 20:43

I used to be a nurse - did stints in gynae, urology and paeds. If you think biological sex is absolutely female or male, you are very mistaken.

I am a feminist. I do not find acceptance of transgender people as human beings and acknowledging the discrimination they experience because of their identity to be contrary to my feminist beliefs and values. If you believe so, that is between you and your conscience, but please do not claim to speak for all feminists.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 20:47

We can accept transgender people as human beings and acknowledge and challenge the abuse and violence they experience without accepting the theory of being born in the wrong body. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

Yes there are people who are intersex - and some of them argue aginst the idea that women or men can be born in the wrong body. But the reality is that most of the time we know whether someone is a man or a woman even if some bits are missing e.g. woman without ovaries or man without testes.

OP posts:
Nyac · 07/05/2012 20:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 20:48

Kritiq - Of course I don't speak for all feminists and never claimed to. But I do think the idea of being born in the wrong body and the ideas of feminism are contradictory. You may hold both ideas, but I don't think logically they go together.

OP posts:
Nyac · 07/05/2012 20:49

God this is when people start reporting posts. I keep forgetting we're not allowed to criticise the institution of transgender on Mumsnet.