Why "fun feminism" should be consigned to the rubbish bin

[Nyac]

article by Julie Bindel in the New Statesman.

www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/08/fun-feminism-women-feminist

Quote:

"We need to bring back the radical edge to feminism, and do away with any notion that slutwalking, lap dancing, sex working or Burkha-wearing is liberation for women. If men like a particular brand of feminism, it means it is not working. "Fun feminism" should be consigned to the rubbish bin along with the Lib Dem party."

Agree with Julie, that it's extremely irritating to see a bunch of interlopers attempting to elbow their way in and co-opt feminism, redefining it to suit patriarchy's needs. I've even seen people who support patriarchal institutions like marriage, BDSM or the sex industry calling themselves radical feminists. There is so much misunderstanding and misinformation about feminism out there that people feel like they can grab what they like without making an actual political commitment or any kind of challenge to the patriarchy.

Really liberal feminism (the old kind, not the sex industry supporting kind) and radical feminism are the only kinds of feminism that have ever effected any kind of positive change for women. They need to be reclaimed and supported, not erased by third wave non-feminist feminism.

She's right about the lib dems too. :D Or maybe they are in the same boat and need some classic liberals to reclaim their party from the Tory party's whipping boys.

MizK, how exactly do you expect me to respond to stupid posts about how I remind you of your boss.

I mean you remind me of xyz. Shall I say what exactly, or would that just be a personal attack? I haven't gone there yet with anyone, despite having had them heaped on me on this thread.

Wanting this thread not to be derailed by personal and general attacks on radical feminists is not unreasonable. In fact claiming it is is just another derail.

I agree Abigail. I'm just listening to R4 because they are discussing Game Theory en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory

Which I think is very apt when discussing the balance between personal liberties and collective freedoms.

Game theory plays out in simple games of Rock, Paper Scissors, on the stock markets and in politics and it is also a great way of looking at decision making in general.

The main thrust of the theory is that sometimes we lose if we always play our most competitive strategy.

Supposing we take individualism to it's absolute end game, we all play our individual best strategy, we make decisions in isolation to everything/one else. What happens is we meet with blockages to those liberties where they come into competition with another's liberty. Their best strategy might be better/worse than yours, you might win, you might draw or you worse still lose.

It's interesting how hard people find it to believe that we exist in any kind of collective reality or that our individual situations and choices can be socially affected, despite the fact we live in societies with lots of other people and patterns can be quite easily observed. It's real head in the sand stuff to deny that.

Extreme individualism seems like possibly a form of narcissism. Or something else, I'm not sure.

I don't know Nyac, but I guess it's because feminism doesn't exist in isolation but within this wider individualistic and capitalistic culture. People are unable to understand how media and advertising impact upon their thinking. Feminism needs to be antagonistic to the prevailing culture when that culture harms women.

Lots of people seem to think they make their own choices in life and fail to see or acknowledge that all of our choices are heavily influenced by lots of stuff in our lives, socialisation and the structure of society. You can only beginto make real choices (and even then not fully), if you understand and acknowledge the influences.

I was just talking generally mini, not just about feminism. Although feminism is one of the most strongly resisted forms of social analysis.

Absolutely, EatsBrains (love the name!)

I think if "fun Feminism" high jacks feminism it actually becomes just another tool of the thing we are in opposition to. It leads people up a path on a very dodgy ideology to a dead end.

Thanks for the compliment. I started a chat thread to ask for ideas, so I didn't come up with it.

Why do you think people resist the idea so much that they are so strongly influenced in their choices by socialisation, childhood, etc? It is very relevant to feminism, but also to other things.

Because autonomy, a strong sense of self and of being an individual are very important to most people. Ditto not being a sheep, or following the crowd.

Same reason why "advertising doesn't work on me".

I think what generally gets termed fun feminism is part of the backlash.

Women have been accorded a number of gains in terms of equality but we are a long way off liberation and the end of male supremacy. We are allowed to vote, earn money, etc but woe betide any woman who thinks she has the right to real sexual freedom (as opposed to patriarchal capitulating sexual expression). Women must be constantly reminded that we are the sex class and fun feminism does just that (excellent tool of patriarchy - one that on the surface appears to be about women's liberation but is actually about embracing oppressive practices).

Fun feminism often looks to me like it has taken the gains (many of them fought hard for by radical feminists) and then used them to express women's culture in ways that are highly patriarchal.

One of the main ways in which women are oppressed is through sex - we are the subhuman sex class. For women to claim that they choose to be the sex class just smacks of internalisation to me.

Fun feminism looks like a survival strategy to me at best, and very individualistic and therefore not political, at worst.

From this link

"Fun feminism is a term used to describe that curious branch (brand?) of "feminism" that looks suspiciously like what a bunch of misogynists would come up with if they were defining the terms of feminist existence. That is, fun feminists are "empowered" by embracing and performing male-centered, male-sanctioned (and usually male-created) expressions of toxic femininity.

Fun feminists are deeply enmeshed in what sociologists call "patriarchal bargains".

I don't agree with liberal feminism either, but IMO liberal feminism is a very different beast to fun feminism. AFAIK, liberal feminism doesn't claim that misogynistic beauty practices and sexual exploitation are liberating for women.

And I don't wish to tell any woman what to do with her genitals - I do think we should be able to discuss how what we do with our genitals is influenced by patriarchal paradigms however.

'Fun Feminists' - Splitters!!

Great post, Beachcomber!

"Fun feminists are deeply enmeshed in what sociologists call "patriarchal bargains".

Excellent post Beachcomber.

Let's be honest,sociology isn't really an 'ology' is it?

Wow... been following but lets see if I can explain why I am not getting where you are going.

I am new to feminism, I am learning, I need time to take on ideas and adjust. I get told well you are not at the right end of feminism it should be binned and you should just forget about learning and making your own decisions and just follow and accept our arguments because they are right. And if we alienate some sections of feminist (be it fun, feminist lite or pro sex) that is fine because we do not accept their opinions. Strangely you sound closer to my ExH than to any woman I know.

How do you expect to grow the feminist movement by pushing away women because they are not at your end of the feminist spectrum? I am not particularly pro sex and I am very against street prostitution. I don't believe though you can change things overnight and the ability to compromise will benefit more women in the longer run.

I think it is really important as feminists to listen to women and to explain what we mean by feminism. This is how most of us, including me, become feminists. I think part of that is to say clearly what feminism is and what it is not and why that is the case.

Feminism is actually a clear ideology. Yes there are disagreements within it, but overall it is clear. When somebody/groups start saying this is feminist or this is what feminism means, when by any stretch of the imagination it doesn't, I think it is important to counter that. Otherwise those who don't knwo about feminism get a totally warped idea of what it is.

If I had thought feminism was about supporting prostitution and porn for example, I would never have called myself a feminist.

That's what the Peoples Front of Judea thought and look what happened to them!

Just to say as well, of course sometimes discussions get a bit heated - as they do on virtually all the boards - even camping!!

That doesn't mean imo that it is feminists bashing other feminists or feminists bashing non feminists. Discussions get heated on MN on any forum, because it is issues people care about a lot, or they are getting very frustrated, or anger from something else is coming out. But that happens on every board here

Sorry x post.

dolly - So feminsts should just shut up and not explain their views even on a part of the forum that is about discussing feminism and women's rights?

Sorry dolly I don't think your post was meant for me after all?

Sausage, you are so right about the alienation, which is why it is important to keep an open dialogue. What would be really wrong though is for feminism to stop being antagonistic towards the social institutions which are damaging to all women.

OP and the Bindel piece illustrates that many women are being alienated by feminism through "fun feminism" women look in and fall at the first hurdle, they ask the questions but receive no answer "what is feminism?" Women are not being given the opportunity to explore radical feminism or marxist feminism because to do so would undermine the dominate culture of men and capitalism.

No one is saying that anyone's personal views or politics is wrong but for feminism to move forward from this place we do need to work out a strategy because the battle lines have been moved by a very cunning force, the patriarchy (the capitalist)

The link in the OP and the words from Bindel has made me grate my teeth. If a religious Muslim woman wants to be a feminist it seems she can't be if she follows her religious tenets. I wonder what Rania Khan thought of that statement? Sorry Bindel and anyone who truly believes what she says has taken a step too far when alienating anyone who is not following her tenets.

I am against quite a few things, some are anti feminist, some are political and some are religious. But being told because some of my views are not the same as Bindel's I am playing for the men's team is swear words go here belittling me.

nyac I don't mind what you say to me. You say my post was stupid but I'm not going to cry about it. I just don't like the way you complain about derailment when the discussion meanders even slightly away from your original point. sometimes the 'derailments' are interesting posts and add things to the conversation.
I have enjoyed your thread and have learned a few things from reading it so I hope you don't feel attacked, not my goal at all.
minimaths I don't know anything about Marxism at all so you have inspired me to read up a bit this afternoon, I feel a bit of a dolt not knowing what it means!