Why "fun feminism" should be consigned to the rubbish bin

[Nyac]

article by Julie Bindel in the New Statesman.

www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/08/fun-feminism-women-feminist

Quote:

"We need to bring back the radical edge to feminism, and do away with any notion that slutwalking, lap dancing, sex working or Burkha-wearing is liberation for women. If men like a particular brand of feminism, it means it is not working. "Fun feminism" should be consigned to the rubbish bin along with the Lib Dem party."

Agree with Julie, that it's extremely irritating to see a bunch of interlopers attempting to elbow their way in and co-opt feminism, redefining it to suit patriarchy's needs. I've even seen people who support patriarchal institutions like marriage, BDSM or the sex industry calling themselves radical feminists. There is so much misunderstanding and misinformation about feminism out there that people feel like they can grab what they like without making an actual political commitment or any kind of challenge to the patriarchy.

Really liberal feminism (the old kind, not the sex industry supporting kind) and radical feminism are the only kinds of feminism that have ever effected any kind of positive change for women. They need to be reclaimed and supported, not erased by third wave non-feminist feminism.

She's right about the lib dems too. :D Or maybe they are in the same boat and need some classic liberals to reclaim their party from the Tory party's whipping boys.

If a significant issue with "fun feminism" is that it is alientaing many women from feminism, could the same not be said of radical feminism?

Radical feminists don't want women to stop learning and making decisions.

Neither do we want women to unthinkingly follow or accept arguments.

Radical feminists do however think that actions such as swinging round a pole wearing nipple tassels are unlikely to liberate women from swinging round poles in nipples tassels.

Which seems pretty logical really.

I have no objection to an individual woman choosing to swing round a pole in nipple tassels per se - I just object to that activity being called feminist or political.

Radical feminists do however think that actions such as swinging round a pole wearing nipple tassels are unlikely to liberate women from swinging round poles in nipples tassels.

Yes and I would agree with you.

However, is there really a whole feminist movement, which strongly belives that swinging round a pole in nipple tassles will liberate women, or are there just some feminists who believe that it could be liberating to a single woman if it meant that she was exercising her own, individual sexual freedom?

So, rather than there being a type of feminism which states "women must swing round a pole in order to be liberated" there is in fact just a type of feminism which states "if a woman wants to swing around a pole in nipple tassles she should have the liberty to do so"

Which are two very different things and would mean that Bindell is attacking something which doesn't actually exist.

"We need to bring back the radical edge to feminism, and do away with any notion that slutwalking, lap dancing, sex working or Burkha-wearing is liberation for women" from Bindel

That is where Bindel and I depart.

Beachcomber reading what Bindel put in that article that anything that doesn't agree with what she wants and how she views things IS discouraging me from learning and IS telling me my decisions are not right unless they agree with hers. Sorry since when did she become the ultimate voice on feminism?

I understand that I will not agree with everyone on everything but that over the top "if you not doing it my way your doing it wrong" approach makes me feel like I am being viewed like a 5 yo.

Yes - it seems there is a whole movement like that.

The pole/tassels example is just that - an example. The movement is not based on just pole dancing and nipple tassels.

It isn't a movement that says that a woman must swing round a pole in order to be liberated - rather that liberated women don't object to swinging found poles and calling that feminism. The same movement thinks that feminists who are anti porn and anti prostitution are anti sex and anti liberation and that these feminists are prudes who wish to impose their own morality on other women.

I am anti prostitution because I believe it to be an oppressive institution and violence against women. Not because I'm a dried up anti sex prude who pearl clutches at the idea of doing the sex.

Marxism is a political/socio-economic way of critiquing capitalism. Marxist-feminists believe essentially that woman's oppression as a class is not just rooted in the original violence against women but in the economic and social sphere. I acknowledge that the patriarchy has an antagonism towards women because of our reproductive capacity and sex differences but I think that all oppression stems from class differences in general. I also believe that the battle lines have been redrawn under capitalism and our systems which exploit people of different classes, poor and disadvantaged women (think African nations, black or asian british women and single mothers) are the greatest targets for exploitation.

Well then just disagree with her Sausageeggbacon .

Like you say, Bindel isn't in charge of feminism. Surely the views of one person won't put you off learning things you want to? .

I have not seen this feminist movement saying a woman cannot object to pole dancing.

Does it have any websites or literature?

We shouldn't allow Pole dancers in this country.Coming over here and stealing our men!

I am against any sexual activity that is forced, be it porn or prostitution. Anything where a women makes an informed choice is down to her I am not her moral guardian.

And looking at the discussions here we all have different views of what form and how far feminism should go. Surely we can find common ground on a lot of issues (Rape and FGM for example) that we are all against. A common starting point and compromise seems a better choice than telling me my way is wrong.

minimathsmouse that statement is really annoying it is like saying if you want religion you can't have feminism.

Beachcomber I do very much disagree but early in this thread I think I struggled to be clear why and some of the comments did make me feel alienated. I am just too use to sorting arguments out between ds1 and ds2 so tend to live by compromise.

catgirl1976 Thu 10-May-12 12:07:52
If a significant issue with "fun feminism" is that it is alientaing many women from feminism, could the same not be said of radical feminism?

Nope, but rad fems know better than anyone else. They are right and we are wrong, and if we are alienated, its just cos we are brainwashed idiots and we should convert to their ways of thinking.

I think that just about sums up the lack of respect, for other forms of feminism or for anyone else not in their 'gang'. Not exactly a great state of affairs.

Great thread, Nyac - twenty pages of genuinely interesting discussion.

Minimath - can you recommend some introductory reading on Marxist-feminism, plus anything that might grab the interest of my 15 year old daughter?

Catgirl are you not familiar with the sex positive movement and its criticisms of radical feminism? There are loads of blogs, books, etc on the subject - I'm not the right person to direct you to them as I avoid them.

Sausageeggbacon that's fine if you disagree with Bindel. I happen to agree with her but I won't tell you or anyone else that their way is wrong - I will however robustly argue why I disagree with people who support the porn and prostitution industries for example.

I'm familiar-ish with it but from what I can see it doesn't seem to insist that people cannot object to pole dancing etc. It is anti-censorship, but thats not the same thing

Beachcomber I am very much a creature of Milton/Sartre so I tend to be in favour of people exercising free will. I do not see myself having the right to decide for others IF it is a free choice. I much more keen on seeing the work of Forward UK promoted and all feminists no matter what type supporting the work against FGM. It is probably closer to me as a friend suffered this when she was quite young and it is not something she discusses easily.

My experience of sex positive values is that they argue that being against the gendered institution of prostitution (for example) is oppressive. I wonder if they think being against human organ selling, due to how the poor and oppressed are likely to be exploited, were it legal to trade in organs, is also oppressive?

I have found that even if I don't agree with something - maybe some of the more "extreme" radical views, I have found it very useful to think about WHY I don't agree with them. Personally I found that going through that exercise has completely challenged some inherent beliefs that I always held as truths before.

To give an example, I always believed that males/females behaved differently mainly because of biology. I grew up believing that, and it is hard to get my head round that it is not true. That, yes there are biological differences between the sexes, but I never appreciated how much influence social/cultural expectations and pressures had on the way we raise children. My 8 yo recently did a workshop at school where they discussed this. I was very impressed.

IF it is a free choice

And therein lies the major difference between radical views and fun/sex positive views - in how we conceptualise free choice.

If dancing round a pole in nipples tassels were such a free choice, it wouldn't be predominately young pretty women who did it for the entertainment/titillation of paying men.

ladypoverty.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/my-marxist-feminist-dialectic-brings_05.html this is a great read Sanjeev

"In a "dictatorship of production" largely run by men for their needs, which is additionally ever-expanding into new realms of human experience, the commodification of female sexuality is plain to see, not only in the strict sense of pornography, but in the pornographic forms in which women, presented as "finished products," are distributed within the mainstream. This "consumer-oriented" approach to women is very deeply held by men, reinforced by that personal liberty which is the exclusive domain of market relations, and which men do not experience anywhere else. That creative capacity which men naturally possess remains unreferenced; it is not used at work, and it is not applicable in the market. It lies undeveloped to a significant degree.

It is important to emphasize the extent to which the creative impotence which men experience through a subjugated work experience is mutually reinforced by the power-urge men experience as consumers, where their creative abilities don't apply. The very social relation which men most desire but struggle to navigate has been commodified into an object which must now compete with others of its kind for mens' approval. Men have been transformed through market relations from objects of production into gods which the female-sexual-commodity is designed to serve"

I'll look out some books, Engles is really the original proponent that women are disadvantaged under the capitalist mode of production but would be difficult to digest in it's entirety. The one thing you have to be quite careful of is the fact that Marxist-feminism has also been devalued as a critique and when you do internet searches it will throw up all sorts of contradictions.

Broadly speaking it's a socialist movement concerned with all forms of class discrimination, incl sexism, Lots of Marx analysis is difficult and impenetrable but many great books and some online courses on capital, if your interested.

The definition of free choice and the right to exercise it. Bindel exercised her right when she wrote the article. The fact she was able to to is a comment in and of it self. However getting to the key issue I don't like porn and I don't like prostitution and I don't like Bindel's opinion. That is my free choice which as a woman I have the right to exercise. I could not and should not stop people exercising their free choice.

I can comment on it, I can put forward suggestions and can express my opinion. I am grateful for that as I am grateful for the ability to read, listen observe and learn. I have not walked in another woman's shoes so judging her by her job is very difficult if she believes it is what she want's to do. I do dislike claims that the only reason a woman says she enjoy's a job around sex work is because she is brain washed. Yes some women make poor choices but it is their choice.

And at this point there are several things that wont get done unless I start them now. BBL

Look, the main motivation of 'sex positive' feminism is objections to slut-shaming. It is not about saying 'Oh just buy some lipstick and learn to pole-dance and you won't have to worry about DV, reproductive rights or unequal pay any more'. Supporting the rights of sex workers not to be harassed and stigmatized is not telling all women that taking up sex work is their best option if they don't want to do it. The Slutwalk was a fightback against the rape myth that if a woman dresses in a certain way she deserves to be raped. The insistence that women who refuse to condemn all forms of commercial sex and/or sexual display are Bad Feminists who want us all back under male control is as much a stupid caricature as the idea that all Proper Feminists are unwashed, hairy bullies who want to put men in extermination camps.

Thank you Minimath

See.. if Sex positive feminism is what SGB says, then it doesn't sound damaging / anti feminism to me.

It sounds much better than anything that takes the view that "if a man approves of a brand of feminism it's not working" as that is just stoopid frankly.