What makes a Woman a Woman? (Or a Man a Man)

[Hullygully]

Spin off from TAATAAT.

Beyond the focus of mtf trans and "born-women" only spaces.

The girls are my DDs by the way, they need new clothes.
I a not referring to a middle aged woman (me) and a pensioner (my mum) as "the girls"!!!

Glad to hear it sardinequeen! You can keep your membership of the feminist club in that case.

I agree completely that the women born women only space has been diluted by the law.

No argument there.

And the one MtF I know is definitely not sexist.

I'm not saying I have all the answers - or that I know the answers, I'm just saying that the law has found a way forward, and for the moment that's the law, therefore you or anyone feels it's wrong and should be changed, then lobby and challenge it.

Until then, like it or not, the law is the law and has to be obeyed, otherwise there's anarchy.

I think that's a red herring too, elephants. An awful lot of bnonr-wiomen are appalling sexists.

I think the vulnerable women and born-women only spaces should be another point.

1. Given points one and two, and the historical and present day shafting of females by males, how do we ensure protection for the vulnerable while trying to fumble our way towards an understanding and accommodation of the trans?

And BTW that "lobby" is not code for "stop discussing it" it means do what ever you feel necessary within the law to challenge it.

Oh and my MIL and SIL are terrible sexists and bigots.

I wouldn't transpose their views onto all women.

Nyac, i think "wiring" would be an incorrect term, but i cant think of anything else to describe it - the connections in the brain are plastic - to a degree, but you only have to consider those with spinal injuries to realise that its not THAT plastic. There are parts of the brain that are physically different in males and females, i seem to remember a bit with a very long name which is a small region of the brain associated with co-ordination (i think) and i remember being told that this area is slightly larger in males than in females and is annecdotally thought to be the reason why women can't read maps (which of course is blatant bollocks - but apparently if you give a woman a map to navigate with, she will naturally turn the map in the direction of travel wheras a man wont - im an ace map reader but i do do this).

Also, neurons do not divide and reproduce throughout life, so if i were to be being nit picky then i would say that it is not correct to say that the brain develops throughout life, the connections in the brain will form and unform - the synapses and it is still relatively poorly understood what is involved in the development of these more "hardwired" synapses. This is why people often don't recover from spinal injuries because once those connections have broken, rewiring the connections is virtually impossible as it is not known exactly what "instructions" were around at the time of development.

I certainly don't think we should be fighting against our sexual identities as we are pretty much what we are, whether we are male female or something else.

hathor yes it has to be obeyed, but it doesn't mean I and others have to like it. And if I am in women only space where women will feel vulnerable e.g. communal showers and MtoF comes in who still has a mans body and maybe a penis, I will tell them I don't want them to be in there, and quite forcefully too!

Ok, must do some work.

When have I ever said you do have to like it?

And what if that person you think is a MtF is actually just a "masculine" female?

boring - lots of women do this, but some don't. Every "discovery" like this only applies to the majority of women. So does that mean other women who behave in more traditionally masculine ways are men?

And everyone forgets that one of the real biological affects on men and women - our hormones - are not imbalanced in Trans people in realtion to the body they are born with.

I think Transgenderism is a psychological condition only, albeit that the roots may be there from when someone is very very young. I don't know if surgery and hormones or other treatment is the best way to treat it. But I think when people talk about a biological reason they always come up with something which means that many women who don't feel Trans would fit the category of Trans e.g. not feeling like a female as hullgully describes.

But our society doesn't take psychological illnesses seriously and sees it often as the person's fault. And I think this stigma is why most Trans people want a biological reason.

hathor - sorry you haven't said that. Of course if I wasn't sure if she was a masculine female or Trans I would say nothing. But yoy do know the majority of Trans people do not have genital surgery? So for lots of Trasn people in a communal shower it would be bloody obvious.

Agree it would be obvious.

Maybe the answer then is no communal spaces?

As I said, I don't know, and I'm looking at it from a legalistic point of view perhaps?

All that would mean in my area is that the run down leisure centres would close. The council already wants to close some down because of lack of money and local people have been campaigning to keep them open. But in the long term this could be a solution.

It also doesn't address the issues of vulnerable women accessing services such as rape crisis, women only sexual abuse groups, lesbian women, etc.

Agree.

But what about the fact that some straight women might feel uncomfortable sharing space with lesbian women?

And that is why lesbians value lesbian only space, so they can get away from that shit.

But then that means there would be a plethora of changing areas in just the same way as for transgendered people?

Sorry I wasn't saying that there should be lesbian only changing rooms of course not.

Straight women have to put up with any discomfort of changing in front of lesbian women, so I do understand what you are saying here.

I guess the difference is that:

1. I haven't heard that this is really an issue for straight women
2. Women are not heavily socilaised not to change or use toilets shared with lesbians. They are heavily socialised not to use them with men.

But you can't tell by looking at someone whether they are a lesbian or not

However if a person disrobes and they have a penis and testicles and no breasts, then clearly they are not what would fall into most people's definitions of a woman (although obviously according to the law they are a woman).

I was thinking earlier about single sex hospital wards and some countries which have a "women only" train carriage late at night. There are lots of examples of these sorts of things which will have to go.

Women are heavily socialised to use women only spaces. It starts from birth. As a parent of a girl I would gladly march into the female toilets to change my dd's nappy, but my partner, at that time, had no option but to go to a disabled toilet or, in the more 'progressive' stops a parents room.

Until he is fully cognisant, there is no way my son goes into a male toilet alone. Currently, I get my eldest's boyfriend to accompany him.