What makes a Woman a Woman? (Or a Man a Man)

[Hullygully]

Spin off from TAATAAT.

Beyond the focus of mtf trans and "born-women" only spaces.

I would disagree with that definition of I more than I would disagree with the whole woman= a gender identity idea!

I think that definition is really pertinent to the whole debate. I don't think of myself as consciousness inhabiting a shell. I do not experience a split between my mind and my body, and I think it is often damaging when women do experience this split.

A man has a male body. When we see a man we know from the build, height, genitals, face structure, bodily hair, smell, etc that they are men. Yes not all men have all of these characteristics, but they do have enough to clearly recognise who is and who isn't a man.

And if there was no such thing, why do Transgendered people talk about being in the wrong body? I have a female body. But if I thought I was a man and that a man's body can be anything I think it is, why would I have surgery, hormones, change my presentation, etc to look more like a man. Transgender people do this because they know there is a male and female body - it is a biological reality.

I am a woman but think of myself as a person rather than a 'man' or a 'woman'. I know there are people who feel very much one or the other but am interested to see there are a few people here who feel the same. I don't know what makes me feel personny instead of womanny, it's just me.

Dalliard and that is fine. But in reality you do have a woman's body and other people will treat you as a woman.

But then that applies to women.

And transgendered FtM people have the same issues.

That's interesting Sea.

I think I feel myself as quite distinct from my shell.

I suppose, Eleph, and I'm just thinking as I type so haven't thought this through, but I think people treat differently shaped/looking/smelling etc people of all genders in different ways according to lots of different things that may be going on. I haven't read properly all through the thread so will do.

Dalliard - Yes I am sure you are right. Men for example who are tall in general get treated differently to men who are very short. But there are things about how men and women are treated that each sex has in common.

I agree with Alexander's comment that the only meaningful definition of gender/sex is one that people arrive at for themselves.

Then that means anyone can access women's space which will mean there will be no women only space any more.

It is at the extreme edges, but I have reda men arguing that they are transgendered if they wear a dress for a day and are for that day a woman. So men who wear a dress for a day and define as men would be able to use women's showers and changing rooms including showering and changing where girls are getting showered and changed.

Can't you see how dangerous it would be if we simply said anyone gets to self define what they are and we should all just accept that?

I don't think that does mean that, no.

I completely support women's rights.

I think just because someone is transgendered and says something, or is reported as saying something, doesn't mean they know everything or are representing everything to do with that, so a lot of things might be said which are not helpful, or ill-thought out, or wrong, just like with all of us.

elephantscantski wrote - "vesuvia - I think sex is a biological reality, not a feeling."

I agree that sex (male/female) is biological reality, not a feeling. I don't think I said it was a feeling. I believe biological sex is unchangeable.

The only sense in which I would use the word feeling in relation to biological sex is for the physical sensations of bodily functions e.g. menstrual cramps, labour pains, orgasm, urination etc. How many biological males know what those biological female feelings are like?

I accept the existence of biologically intersex people.

I accept transgender people, who live or want to live in the social gender role (man/woman) that is most often associated with the opposite biological sex.

The socialisation of biologically female women and biologically male MtF transgender women is different and I would like more recognition and acceptance of that difference.

I think the concepts of gender and biological sex have been so mixed up by their general loose usage in society that it can be very difficult to know which we are talking about. I dislike the way that the word gender has been hijacking to now usually mean biological sex.

Although I do not accept woman being some kind of mental feeling, I suppose I could be persuaded to think of the man/woman gender role as some kind of "performance", not in the sense of someone consciously looking for an Equity acting union card, more in the Shakespearean sense of "all the world's a stage" or the feminist recognition of "performing femininity".

Why is it only ever MtF who get mentioned?

Hullygully, nice try.

hathorkicksass, "Why is it only ever MtF who get mentioned?"

You, SardineQueen and I have swapped messages about FtM transgendered people, upthread.

I know, but when everyone is talking it's all about men in womens' changing rooms.

vesuvia - Yes I do think men/women is a performance of a gender role. An unconscious one, but a performace nonetheless.

hathor - I think it is because FtoM doesn't really have any impact on us as woman. If we were men and a MtoF pre op transgenfder person wanted to use our communal showers and toilets, we would probably all be talking about MtoF here.

But surely, since the MtF person is identifying as a woman and living as a woman, then it does impact on women? Or at least, there is a level of shared experience?

hathor - But not in any meaningful way. If she was my sister for example, then yes of course. But just as someone who lives where I live - not really

Pre op/hormones she wouldn't have a male body and so there wouldn't be the issues with toilets, changing areas, etc. After op then presumably a MtoF would want to use a man's changing room, etc so it wouldn't impact on me - unless I heard men I know like my father comnplaining about it.

But pre-op she's still living as a woman, and could potentially have breasts.

Post-op, legally, she is female.

Sorry confused myself

Pre-op she's male, post op-she's female.

After op, why would a MtF want to use a male changing room, surely since she's legally a female, then she should use the female?

Sorry I got confused here? I thought you were talking about a FtoM.

Oh it's probably me.

I think my head is going to explode. [grin}

Well, that worked