What makes a Woman a Woman? (Or a Man a Man)

[Hullygully]

Spin off from TAATAAT.

Beyond the focus of mtf trans and "born-women" only spaces.

It seems to me that gender roles are a red herring. If a ftm is born, she quickly becomes aware that there are two types of human and feels strongly that she wants to be long to the alternative half (male). That male group might all where dresses, or curl their hair, or play rugby, whatever the current mores dictate. It is the male essence (whatever the fuck that is), that she feels strongly identified with.

And obviously vice versa.

Pepole don't want to change sex because of the roles ascribed to the gender, but they only have those terms to try and express their feelings with.

belong
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But if you take the gender roles away, then you are left with a "feeling". I don't really "feel" like a woman, I just feel like me. The idea that sex (not gender, sex) is nothing more than a "feeling" is really problematical.

Gender-wise I probably identify more closely with male.
Sex-wise I am female. I was born with female genitals, at puberty I grew breasts, I have had two babies and breast-fed them. Clearly I am female, there's no disputing that is there? But there is, if based on what I identify with, and what my "brain type" is, I am male.

How many actual transgendered people have any of us ever come across in RL?

Me - one. A MtF. And she's lovely.

I have no problem accepting that in the same way as my brain is wired wrongly and I suffer with anxiety, a transgendered person's brain is wired wrongly WRT their gender/sex/whatevertherighttermis.

The other thing is that gender - it's not only to do with what stereotypical things you like but how others treat you. Being treated as a female growing up is a very different experience to being treated as a male growing up. How many people feel that the way they are being treated does not chime with how they feel inside.

Clearly for lots of women all around the world there is a great feeling that they are beign treated out of line with how they feel inside, but they are not in the position to be able to say "actually I'm a man" and make their lives so much better.

Not wrongly, hathor, differently.

And where does you theory leave all the women with "male brains"?

It leaves them where ever they want to be (FWIW I think I have a more "male" brain than is normal for a female)

And if my brain can be wired differently WRT anxiety and I can have medication and treatments for that, why can't a transgendered person whose brain is wired differently?

Also with something like anxiety is doesn't mean your brain is wired differently (which implies permanence) - it can be a result of a range of different things - some of which are not permanent.

Me too SQ.

I wrote (here/other thread) that I was seen and treated as a boy until 13 and have never felt like a "woman."

That's why I had to call it "essence". I don't think we know what it is.

I'd like to see the evidence for "wrong" wiring in the brain, given that the brain is plastic not wired and can actually develop in many different ways right throughout life.

But most women in the world can't be wherever they want to be.

They are identified as female at birth and their gender role is prescribed and that is that.

If you take away the concepts of sex and gender as even existing, in a world that is so highly gendered, where does that leave women? It's not going to stop people in India drowning female babies at birth or make the Taliban decide that women don't have to wear Burqas after all, is it.

If you take away the concepts of sex, male and female, and gender, then how can you possibly have any kind of women's movement? How can you identify discrimination? How can you fight with anti-abortion people?

You can't. It is a huge problem.

But the point is that gender roles vary widely across the world and throughout time and yet still no matter what they are people have felt themselves to be wrongly sex-assigned (perhaps that's better than gender-assigned)

Hullygully - what is the male essence or the female essence. And maybe I am unusual but I have known 5 MtoF Transsexuals in terms of regularly being in contact with them. But then I am a feminist who uses women only space and some MtoF Trans people lobby hard to get into women only space. They have largely achieved this.

And tbh all were sexist to varying degrees i.e. dominate conversation in groups of women, some making sexist remarks, etc. I don't care if Trans people attend say women only discos. I do care if they attend women only sexual abuse groups or even women only general discussion groups.

But women have largely lost the fight in this country to create women only spaces that exclude Trans people and I think it is because most women don't understand how valuable women only spaces can be to some women.

So do you think you are a man, hully?

I don't, I'm just me.

How many transgendered people does anyone else on this thread know in RL?

I know one.

She would no more wish to upset and trigger or belittle anyone than rise and fly to the moon.

It isn't fair to lump all transgendered people in with transactivists who do not speak for them, just as it wouldn't be fair to lump all people in a minority group with radicals in that group.

Most are really just trying to get on and live a life. Most have been subjected to horrible bullying, stares, name calling and they just want to live in peace.

I don't take them away as existing, I am saying that I don't think we understand them, and for that reason don't have the vocab to express it.

No, I think of myself as a person, or a consciousness who inhabits a female shell.

I think the issues are separate.

1. We can see that there is a clear gender binary and one half is shafted by the other.

1. Some humans feel themselves to be wrongly sex-assigned for reasons we do not yet understand and lack the ability to vocalise therefore.

Not saying that Indian people are red-hot-keen on drowning babies BTW!
But that it happens, and in China too.

I agree with Hully.

There is a sex binary.
The gender binary is not clear - many many people do not meet, or do not want to meet, the role prescribed for their sex.

But if sex is a feeling, then where does that leave women?
Up the creek is the answer.

I have to go out now and fulfil my gender role (shopping for the girls with my mum ).

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1. There is a clear sex binary with gender roles ascribed and one half shafts the other. (With the caveat of course of chromosomal differences and shades of grey attendant)

1. Some humans feel themselves to be wrongly sex-assigned for reasons we do not yet understand and lack the ability to vocalise therefore.

hathor I have just posted on the other thread to say I have known 5 in terms of coming into regular contact with. I know trans people experience terrible discrimination and that is awful. What I don't think this means is that we should therefore ignore the rights of vulnerable women.

Most decent peopel don't care if Trans people access a wide variety of spaces and services. Where they do care is where women are vulnerable and by vulnerable I mean psychologically. So womens communal showers and changing rooms, rape crisis services, refuges, etc.

I don't agree that because trans people suffer awful discrimnination that women should overcome their unahppiness at sharing space at times they feel vulnerable. But you must know this fight for women only space has largely been lost with the change of the law.

And yes some of the MtF I have known are lovely, some not so. But all have been sexist to varying degrees.

Sardine - would you support the people who do not meet, or wish to meet, the role prescribed for their sex?

I don't know if it is a "feeling." I don't know what it is. It just seems to clearly exist and yet we haven't figured it out yet.