France: Le Pen proposes that three abortions would be state-funded. Subsequent abortions would not.

[Greythorne]

ok, she is a racist and an extremist

But what bothers me is that some of my friends, usually right-thinking, apparently agree with the above

Help me marshall my thoughts to destroy this fucked up 'idea'.

Thx

Hoebag, there must be an underlying reason for the phenomenon you describe. I just can't accept that the young women in that area are just particularly dim witted and irresponsible.

The point about limiting access to abortions after a certain number is that the thinking behind it is to "teach them a lesson," rather than to identify why it's happening and try and stop it. It's also a very blunt instrument and takes no account of the circumstances for the young woman or the likely outcome if she's forced to carry a pregnancy to term (outcome for her and for the resulting child.) It's still based on "slut shaming," rather than trying to resolve the problem.

Herren makes some important points about access to contraception which may prove a barrier to young women reducing their risk of pregnancy. There can be any number of social, psychological, historical, cultural (e.g. small town), faith, etc. reasons why there are many unplanned pregnancies resulting in abortions, and why abortion is seen as the better/safer/more socially acceptable/whatever option than contraception.

And, I still come back to the findings from the NSPCC study - are the young women getting pregnant genuinely in control of their own sexual relationships? As unpalatable as it may seem, there is evidence emerging that young women of all backgrounds, in all areas of the country are "normalising" the idea that sex is something for men's pleasure, something you have to do on their terms and something you have to pretend to like to keep them interested and avoid being a complete social pariah.

Does she specify the type of abortions she wants to put a funding limit on? Or is it all terminations, full stop? Is she including the morning after pill in her 'scheme'?

I've had an ERPC following a MMC, which as I understand it is a similar procedure to a surgical abortion. It took me several weeks to fully recover, even with support from my family, and I can't imagine anybody would use this as a form of contraception, certainly not more than once.

The only benefit that could possibly come from this ridiculous legislation would be if it enabled vulnerable women to be flagged up by the health system so they could be offered help for whatever circumstance led them to need 4 or more terminations.

:O am I the only one who is shocked by these comments? Surely responsibility must fall on women? I don't see why feminists always view women as innocent when in cases they are not. I think things like this are why feminism is routinely mocked tbh :/

ZOMBIE

I agree with everythng on here, it's a terrible idea rooted in the woman-blaming culture. Looking at it from the other perspective, as it takes two people to create a foetus, will there be records kept of who the father is in each situation so that if a man has fathered more than 3 foetuses that have had to be terminated for whatever reason (rape/foetal abnormality/not the right time/not in a stable relationship etc etc), after that he will have to pay half the costs towards an abortion?

Can't imagine that going down terribly well. Or what if a man has fathered a foetus with a woman who has had 3 abortions with other partners? Will he still have to pay half the cost or, if it his first abortion, wll he get his half of the cost funded?

Or will we leave the man out of the equation altogether and focus on just blaming charging the woman?

People have said (possibly to make this sound more acceptable) that "It'll only apply to a very small number of women" but if that's true, the cost to the health system isn't very large. The impact to the woman, though, is pretty severe--nobody should have 4 abortions, and I don't think it's "slut shaming" to say so. Call it "idiot shaming" if you want! Everyone can have all the sex they want, and that's private behaviour and everyone has the right to choose it. But women should not get pregnant if they don't want to, and I'm willing to use the words "women should not" there.

I wonder if a woman has multiple abortions, whether she might be in a relationship where her partner refuses to use contraception or let her do so, so she gets repeatedly pregnant, but she's able to go off and get abortions out of the man's sight. Or she has religious scruples about contraception, but once she's actually pregnant, she's desperate enough to get an abortion. For her, taking the pill would be a sin every day, but the abortions are just once in a while.

I just think it is so totally wrong for a woman to have repeated abortions that it's a clear sign she needs help, either to deal with her own behaviour or to protect her from her partner, which might mean he has to change his attitude or she should be encouraged to leave him. Whatever the problem is, making the woman pay for abortions is totally the wrong way to deal with it.

Yes thanks for that Tei Tetua You aren't talking about mythical women here you know.

I can see why actually,

I mean what is the research on what damage a lot of abortions can do. physically?

If someone never wants kids but continues to get pregnant shouldn't they be directed towards contraception etc?

I think they'd save a lot more money if they took all the contact or extreme sports in France, and paid for the first three broken limbs suffered but after that you'd have to pay. Or even more money if they paid for healthcare after three road traffic accidents, but after that your shit out of luck. Why the limit in this instance? Oh yeah silly me its about women.

What a monumentally stupid notion. I've gotten a little bit sick and tired of where we stand with the abortion debate these days. People are so busy running around trying to be in the right on the issue (as far as their dogmatic narrow minded view of what constitutes right is) they seem to have forgotten basic human compassion.

its monumentally stupid to compare road accidents to several unwanted pregnancies.

I think you have missed the sarcasm in the post.

was it frothing/sarcasm? its hard to tell on here,

Are they proposing a solid no fail way of chasing up the men and boys who bear half the responsibility for the pregnancy in order to make sure that they contribute to the cost of a fourth abortion or take responsibility for their child?

Thought not.

This is about PIV culture and why it is harmful to women and girls. If Le Pen really cared about unwanted pregnancies she would be addressing; why society is so fixated on sex = intercourse, and, sex = something men are entitled to but free from the biological consequences of.

Girls and women do not get pregnant all by themselves in a vacuum.

She is a politician. She will be looking at the Euros and cents, not the human fall-out.

Right CiscoKid. And what is interesting is that she thinks this is a vote winner. And she may well be right.

Punishing women, but not men, for having PIV that results in an unwanted pregnancy is a potential vote winner.

I agree with above posts that a woman who is on her fourth abortion probably needs help. She doesn't need a forced pregnancy and birth or a backstreet abortion or debt. She also needed her partner to wear a condom or not come in her but it is too late for that.

Children born as a result of not getting a paid abortion will cost the state a lot more money one way or another than the cost of an abortion.

I think she may well be right that it is a vote winner (I know that the thread was started last year during the elections but let's say it's still a policy). There is deep mistrust of women in France and women are still freely referred to as sluts, or mocked, for wearing revealing clothing or sleeping around. Abortion carries much more stigma than it does in the UK, and victim blaming for all kindsof crimes against women is rife. Even by other women.

I wrote a blog post about feminism in France last year here if you're interested. Le Pen is a popular politician with the potential for real clout, and it's not just the racist policies which are attractingnthe votes. She plays to the deepest fears and mistrust of French people, and one of the things the French mistrust, as well as, ironically, revere (in a kind of madonna way) is women.

Didn't Julie Burchill have five abortions?

Right. You do not have to be wrong, damaged, deviant, or a slut to have had 4 abortions. As a matter of fact I have had four myself. One at 19, one at 21, one at 25 and one at 38. The first two times were down to a misplaced youthful belief in the withdrawal method, third was a split condom and failed MAP, fourth was condom failure- no idea how, but condoms have a 2% failure rate if used correctly, so statistically it must happen a lot.

Even the most effective form of contraception- the Pill- is only 99% effective. There are many MN threads about accidental pregnancy, where women recount their experiences of getting pregnant even though using one or even two types of reliable contraception.

The decision to have an abortion is a responsible act in order to terminate an unwanted pregnancy; it is a right we have fought for, and it is no longer a right that we can take for granted, in light of recent events in Texas, for example. So enough of the "Why oh why"? handwringing- having several abortions is in no way the worst thing that can happen to a woman. Far, far worse, would be to need those abortions and not be able to get them.

Sometimes I think people are caught in a time-warp; thousands of years ago when everyone believed women were magic and just produced babies from their bodies with no male input needed.

Only difference is women were worshipped then!!