I didn't know the hate was SO bad

[laurawriter]

Did everybody know about this?
I recently started a website for women (I don't know if I'm allowed to say what it is because of the advertising rules thing - am I allowed to say?) But basically it's a site where women can share very mundane, everyday instances of niggling sexism like being shouted at in the street or called 'babe' in the office etc etc. The idea was simply to give women a safe space to feel catharsis and talk about something that had been sexist and upsetting but which may well have been brushed off elsewhere or which they might not have been able to raise elsewhere because of the old 'overreacting' myth.

It doesn't mention men, isn't even overtly 'feminist' - so I've been completely blown away by the vitriol and hatred I've received for the past 3 days. Overnight, everynight, trolls post around 300 comments to the site (fortunately after the first horrible wave I've now managed to turn on moderation so at least only I can see them but still have to read them all to get to the genuine posts). Many of them are explicit descriptions of sexual assault, physical abuse and domestic violence. Many others use my name and 'pretend' to be me saying horrific things about myself. And several contain very explicit threats towards me, many including rape and some mentioning death.

I just wondered - is this normal? Is this a thing that people know about? I feel so horribly naive because I knew sexism was a problem but I had no idea there was such violent, blind hatred with no real reason or thought behind it just against women and their audacity in daring to speak out for themselves.

Sorry for the long post, I just wondered what people's thoughts were - I'm feeling pretty shaken up and don't know whether I should just be accepting this as 'normal' and par for the course with what I'm doing. I thought I was fine and being so strong the first day but then I woke up in the night terrified people were in my garden. Silly really!

Let me ask you something, startail... how will we get women in positions of real power in the West, positions where actual, world-changing policy takes place to improve the lives of women in the developing world, if we don't break down the sexist minutiae of our 'privileged' society? Women here in the West may be beaten down with far smaller and less violent sticks then women elsewhere, but don't doubt for a second that we are just as systematically beaten down here as anywhere else. It's just disguised better here.

Startail I would just like to ask (for when you next pop in): if you do believe in the feminist cause so deeply, what are you doing about it? Or do you think you're somehow showing more integrity in not taking any action yourself but dismissing the efforts of someone like Laura because you don't believe that her actions are important? Cynicism's a great excuse.

It's not an either/or. One cn be concerned about 'everyday sexism' and the other problems around the world. There's enough time for both. Unless you spend it all posting on MN that is

it is impossible for any normal man to interact in a relaxed manner with a woman and not be sexist according to some women's definition of being sexist.

That's just an odd viewpoint, unless your "some women" refers to some tiny minorities with serious social problems ... there'd be no point in referring to them, so I'm going to assume you meant - er, feminists.

All any normal man needs to do, to interact in a relaxed manner with a woman and not be sexist, is interact with her as a person and not as an object representative of her sex. It ain't that hard Most women, and a fair few men, manage to interact with both women and men in a non-sexist, relaxed manner.

Trying to head off possible detailed criticisms of that statement: I'm talking about everyday, person-to-person interactions. Not the silent, patriarchal underpinnings of our societies. It's quite possible to eradicate the stuff on Laura's website before fixing the other stuff - and doing so will help with the other. Direct comparison with racism, in fact: the underlying prejudice still exists, but the daily hurdles have been diminished.

OP - Have just been reading your website. Thank you for this. It is really important to document stuff like this that just goes under the radar of some people or is so easily dismissed. Thank you - a really important contribution.

And i know it can't be easy, but try and ignore the hateful comments. It is because your website is so powerful that you are being targetted by these morons.

startail - I am from a developing country and have seen first hand some of these terrible things you say happen there. (Not to me personally thank god!)
I have said this loads of times - I was shocked when I came to London - all the attitudes that I thought I had left behind are all here! They may not be a majority - but definetely all alive and kicking.
It is just the veneer that says "hey it's all trivial and white women don't have any problems". Scratch the veneer and it's all there. Kids of 11/12 being raped - and whats the first thing asked? What was she wearing? How was her makeup? Did she look 14? 14 ?!!
All the "She was asking for it" rubbish.
The whole strauss kahn thing... and he's jsut in the news cause it's high profile. How many business men expect these perks on business trips!! (Hooters, lap dancers, hookers, hotel maids... All valid standard business practises.)
The porn industry - good god... Do you not see any problem there??? Do you not see that so much that should be fringe is mainstream?
The objectification all over the telly, the magazines, movies, sports. Where are the english womens football, hockey, rugby, cricket teams??? Nope, only ones I have seen are lining the F1 and wags.
Start with the baby gros that say 'wannabe wag' and go all the way to dv and rape - where you are not even allowed to think that you have been raped/dv'ed. (he's normally very nice, you know - I just handled him badly)

I came here and thought there were solutions to be had. You know, you guys have hacked it. We'll get there too!! But no. You haven't hacked it. God knows when we'll get there cause we're 50 steps behind you and you certainly haven't got there yet!

2 women a week - die from dv in the UK. Does it not shock you?
It sure as hell shocks me

I am representative of my sex, I have tits, no penis and have given birth twice.

I am a woman not some androgynous sexless object.

Any man who fails to notice that needs to go to spec savers.

Sorry I'm getting flippant, but I find people who take life quite as seriously as posters on this broad do a bit much after a while.

Anyway, am off to bed. God, I shouldn't have opened this thread last thing. Am all wound up now.

sweet - startail posts stuff like this all the time so don't get wound up about it. Some women imo don't really understand sexism and its impact.

okey dokey. Good night!! [busmile]

night [busmile]

startail, I don't think anyone has suggested that men shouldn't notice that women are women. What we're asking is not to be treated like shit because of our gender. We're asking to be respected as human beings who happen to be female, the same way that men treat other men who happen to be taller, shorter, blonde etc etc. It's the same as any other 'ism' - not about pretending that we're the same, but that realising that the differences don't make one person inherently superior to the other or give any right to treat a different person with any less respect than someone the same as you.

Sorry sweet grapes, cross posted.
Of course Britain is sexist and of course I want to change that.
I just want that change to be brought about in a careful measured way that doesn't promote a backlash and takes all women and the majority of men with it.

The present situation is indeed a veneer of equality under which a terrible lot of wrong carries on.

I don't know how we change that, I just worry that some of what we are doing is counter productive.

startail - Doesn't promote a backlash? There is a backlash if you suggest publically that women don't deserve to be raped. Or that DV is wrong. Any challenge will always lead to a backlash.

People don't like things to change espcially in ways that challenge social norms, so even if you are fighting for a change that needs to happen, no matter how you do it, you won't be greeted with open arms and cheers. You cannot make an omlet without breaking eggs.
Something which has been playing on my mind for a couple of weeks and does seem sort of relevant to this thread is a website that I came across whilst googling the impact of rape (after a comment on the We Believe You thread). I came across a site called Encyclopedia of Dramatica and this page which was just foul. It was set up like a wikipedia page and was promoting rape and sexual violence in a truely stomach churning manner.
Does anyone on here know how getting it taken down would work?

it's like saying we should leave people living in poverty here until there's no poverty that's worse in sudan. or that we shouldn't tackle child abuse amongst pampered western children till children aren't being used as soldiers somewhere.

it's nonsense basically isn't it?

if anything we should be leading the way at the same time as advocating for others. and if we tackle sexism properly in the west then the powers of the west will be more easy to harness to influencing other parts of the world.

Just a quick thought, Laura, but what about using Facebook or Twitter to host your site? I know Twitter is restricted to 140 characters, so that may not be ideal, but there may be similar web apps that I don't know about.

The point is, all users have to be registered, and are traceable. There have been some high-profile prosecutions of abuses on these sites recently too, which might deter the majority of the nutters.

can't you also have a function whereby you have to sign into a site with your facebook account in order to comment? i seem to have seen a lot of that recently which is a way i guess of identity verification. must admit it puts me off though - i don't want to share my identity/details that widely.

ash now sanjeev, you're a man, do you shout at women in the street, or find it practically impossible to be in the company of a woman without de-humanising her in some way? if not, do you think that's because you are practically superhuman, an outstanding example of an egalitarian man or do you think you are just normal and startail is wrong about how awful most men are?

I'd like you to describe the ideas you think some of us have, startail, which prevent normal men functioning in our presence without being assumed to be sexist.

I like the site as it is, as long as you are happy to moderate the comments, of course.

How about a twitter idea - instead of using twitter as a medium, create a hashtag? I'd use it :) #everydaysexism perhaps? A bit long?

Not sure what you mean by 'ash now', Basil. Have I said something wrong?

To answer you question though - no, I don't shout at anyone in the street, male or female, because I am not a knuckle-dragging moron (though some here may disagree ). These people have bigger problems though.

I don't see where startail has said that most men are awful. I think startail has a problem with some of the more radical elements of feminism, not the basic belief that men and women should be equal. For me at least, feminism = politics, and any political movement has wings of greater or lesser extremism. Extremism is always the hardest part of a political movement to 'sell' to the general public, and it's the bit that the enemies of that system (and I don't mean startail here) will highlight, caricature and ridicule.

Thanks all so much for the support and suggestions - yes Im already @everydaysexism but wanted a separate site too and damned if I'll let the bastards beat me back! (you can tell Im feeling stronger in the daylight and thanks to all your wonderful supportive messages!) I thought about the facebook sign in but didn't want to put people off because it's a bit faffy, excludes those not on facebook - plus most importantly many many posters want to remain anonymous and keep it a safe space to vent in secure anonymity and that's hugely important.

Very very happy to report the first night with only a few threats - just the odd 'women should all die' rubbish - how terrible that that seems minor now. If anything the controversy has clearly driven traffic to us by moving people like Peter to support us and publicise it - we're up to over 6000 hits and over 200 stories in only the first week hurrah!

Wtf are,you talking about Sanjeev. Not wanting men to make everyday sexist comments to us is not extremist views. Pretty basic in fact. There was absolutely no reason to write that other than to stir it. I for one am sick of every thread you are on being about you and what you want to talk about.

Laura it is a great website and I am sorry you are getting so much shit. At least you know that you are making a difference and they are a little bit scared if they are resorting to these intimidating methods.

Wow that's really good Laura (about the hits and stories not the all women should die nonsense)