Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

SAF, you're wrong about assertiveness. We live in a shifting power hierarchy, which is expressed through communication and actions. All mammals do. To acknowledge that and engage powerfully is not a compromise; it's more effective use of the talents we were born with.

Don't do that Garlic. It's really dishonest to twist my quotes like that.

Trophy, yes, we have to talk about sexist male behaviour. That's what radical feminists do.

Trophy, challenging that particular behaviour is treating them with respect.

Babygirl: Oh, can you pleeease, help with this, I'm scared of it!
Man: What's the problem?
BG: Well, I was trying to do X but the YZ thing blew up! Eek!
M: Did it actually explode?
BG: Well, no, but it made a great big bang!
M: Right. So can you please explain clearly what happened when you tried to do X?
BG: There was a big bang!
M: No, where did the bang come from, was it like an explosion or more like a thud? How long after you did X was the noise?

Happens every day ... the man has to coach the woman to say what she means. If this causes him to lose some respect for her, I'm not bloody surprised.

Alternative:-

Woman: Hi, there's a problem with my XYZ. I was about to do X, when there was a loud thud from the YZ. Do you know what the problem might be?
Man: Did the thud happen straight away?
W: Almost, there was a delay of about two seconds.

Quicker, to the point, and game-free. It's an adult transaction.

If Man doesn't respect Woman because he's a dyed-in-the-wool misogynist, that's another matter. But she's not inviting him to disrespect her.
If Man is not a misogynist and respects women, he'll feel confused and possibly guilted by Babygirl's attempts to force him into an inappropriate father/lover/protector role. She's also showing disrespect for him by addressing his sex rather than his trade.

"We live in a shifting power hierarchy"

No we don't. Patriarchy is almost immovable, and power has stayed in the hands of men for millennia because of the violence men are prepared to use against women and girls.

Nyac, the Beckham thing was meant flippantly. Sorry it offended you.

Can you really not stop criticising women Garlic. It almost seems reflexive what you're doing. It's a bit disturbing to see in the Feminist section you know.

"Babygirl: Oh, can you pleeease, help with this, I'm scared of it!
Man: What's the problem?
BG: Well, I was trying to do X but the YZ thing blew up! Eek!
M: Did it actually explode?
BG: Well, no, but it made a great big bang!
M: Right. So can you please explain clearly what happened when you tried to do X?
BG: There was a big bang!
M: No, where did the bang come from, was it like an explosion or more like a thud? How long after you did X was the noise?"

This happened didi it? You saw a man and a woman having this conversation. Why didn't you join in as a matter of interest?

nyac it's a feminism topic on mn,not fem section
as unpalatable as you find it,it is ok to have a range of divergent opinions. even some which you perceive as critical of females

Oh for the love of reason, alright lets. Here you go.

I once had a boss who wasn't at all understanding about childcare. She refused to get why it might be tricky for me to do some work that meant me leaving my house at 6.30am and not be able to pick my daughter up before 9pm on the same day.

She had done exactly that when she was working her way up and didn't see why I wouldn't do the same. She hadn't had any other choice so why should I. As far as she was concerned I just had to sort out adequate childcare. That I was breastfeeding didn't register and neither did the fact that it was impossible for me to find a child-minder who would work those hours.

She wasn't running the company, the economy, capitalism or the patriarchy though. She wasn't the originator of the rules who the one who thought up the system. She had suffered from those rules herself to get ahead. Hence her behaviour.

Shifting power hierarchy was not meant in a grand political sense, I should have made that clear. I meant the subliminal (and overt) power structures we all engage with whenever we interact. We can't change this aspect of human life; we're born with it.

The personal very much is political and our personal manner of engagement with others determines greater outcomes. It's a mistake to assume 'power structure' only applies to men. What patriarchy has done is to define and contain power according to a given set of rules, which we now label "male". Feminism wishes to alter those rules, in a similar manner to what Sanjeev and I have been reading about business stratagems. The rules can be altered, because it's within every human being to adapt to shifting power structures. Since the established (patriarchal) structure presently holds sway, it's necessary to break it down - brick by brick, if needs be - to the point where its beneficiaries feel they must engage with alternative structures. To break down a citadel of sexism, sexist assumptions and behaviours need to be challenged and changed wherever possible.

I've compressed a book's worth of thought into a paragraph because I'm VERY late for a meeting ... hope it's made some sense.

Yes and it's also a forum where it's OK to have dull, meandering pointless polemic with no point to it and no real aim to get to any insight.

But that's OK, there are enough people engaging with the aim of actually getting somewhere, not just bogging down discussion in tedium.

Nyac - I've witnessed plenty of convos like that! How the hell should I intervene?

(If you answer, I'll have to read later)

in a discursive forum one should expect and tolerate range of opinion
not a can't say that here ethos

And at least she didn't sexually assault me like the male boss I had in the job before.

"Babygirl: Oh, can you pleeease, help with this, I'm scared of it!
Man: What's the problem?
BG: Well, I was trying to do X but the YZ thing blew up! Eek!
M: Did it actually explode?
BG: Well, no, but it made a great big bang!
M: Right. So can you please explain clearly what happened when you tried to do X?
BG: There was a big bang!
M: No, where did the bang come from, was it like an explosion or more like a thud? How long after you did X was the noise?"

WOW!

Just wow at this mockery and derision from a self-proclaimed feminist.

You're reporting on a real conversation are you Garlic?

Like the OP's husband's claims, I find it difficult to believe.

Not only that, but a self proclaimed radical feminist esperance.

Oh how I enjoyed Andrea Dworkin's book "Why can't a woman be more like a man?", or Mary Daly's essays on "Silly women I have known". They inspired me.

As I said upthread I got sacked by a man because I asked him politely not to call me darling when I was nineteen.

Meanwhile my current female bosses have been very supportive about me taking time off work to look after my mother during a serious illness. They are even paying me part of my salary.

Can't think of bad things to say about women in the workplace, sorry.

Long list of bad things to say about misogynist men I have known in the workplace and how appallingly they treat women, from the small disrespects right up to out and out sex discrimination and sackings.

Oh yes, there was my other male boss who made comments once when I was bending over in my office and who went on to sexually harass a female contact at one of our agencies. He groped her at one of those company social occasions that some men at work like so much because of the alcohol and opportunities for sexual harassment of the female staff. She was scared to say anything because obviously it could have affected the client relationship. Luckily she did and it was dealt with, but only because my misogynistic boss had another group of men wanting to stage a boardroom coup on him, which they duly did.

some dire experience and dreadful bosses there nyac
it is great you've found a supportive boss,and I hope your mum makes a recovery

my workplace experience,overall good. had some dreadful females who belittled and competed behaved appallingly.but also some fantastic female colleagues too. my main mentor was male and he really supported me when I was newly qualified

the biggie I see isn't necessarily gender it's class. that's a much more pernicious force,and doesn't need gender to keep it going.the sense of entitlement and networking is prevalent.resulting in a prejudice to female and male not private school educated or a certain sort

ime, working with other parents generally makes for a conducive workplace

christ!

you might be right sm - garlic is being the perfect example of women being grotesquely sexist to other women.

still less worried by her than the patriarchy though.

god that was awful charicaturing of stereotypes! and from a woman who calls herself feminist? yuk yuk yuk.

I had a boss who told me that he regularly fantasised about forcing himself on me. We were alone in the building at the time because we were working late to get something finished.

I had a male college walk into a stockroom that was fairly secluded in his pants and try to stop me leaving.

I worked with a group of men who used women's initials to give them nicknames - mine was 'fanny juices'. They told me this in the staffroom in front of other workers.

oops colleague, not a whole college thank god. One man in his pants was enough.

I've just walked in on this conversation but bloody hell Beachcomber, where do you/did you work?

I watched the start of the BBC1 programme about sexism in football and although I can understand how those attitudes existed when I first started going to football matches (all of 30 years ago with my dad, I'm now 34) I would like to think that attitues had changed since then.

I live in France, could be something to do with it. Although the nickname thing was in the UK ages ago. I've never forgotten it though.