Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

what is rapism?
undoubtedly some men are ghastly, and if that's your work environment then that us grim
is porn on work pc tolerated? eugh

Exactly IAOS. It is men as a group who rape, attack, murder, sexually assault, sexually harass, stalk women and girls. It is that violence that underpins all male dominance and female submission.

The number of women committing any of these acts is infinitesimal.

i think it overlaps with other areas of victim blaming. it is easier to think that women do this to themselves and could change it if they wanted to than face how vulnerable we can be.

so women conform to rape myths and it offers them an artificial sense of protection from being raped because they wouldn't wear a short skirt/get hammered and go to a party with a guy/get into bed with someone they didn't want to have sex with/etc. it's a security blanket rather than face the truth that if a rapist targets you the chances are you're going to get raped and there is nothing you can do to ensure you never come into a rapists sights.

or women blame women who get into abusive relationships - call them weak or violence disposed etc to assure themselves it could never happen to them when in reality they're just lucky that they haven't fallen in love with a man who turned out to be an abuser eventually.

if women can put down other women who behave in certain ways they can delude themselves that they can achieve equality, be taken seriously, be equals to men at work by not doing x, y or z. in reality they can't because no matter what behaviour they adopt sexism will still be there in the form of sexist men, sexist conditions etc.

meanwhile nothing changes because women are busy picking at each others behaviour instead of focussing on the real enemy.

You're right SAF. It is victim blaming. It's as simple as that.

So if the only people who can effect change are those in power, and as women we can do little to seize power as we are weak and vulnerable and constantly undermined, we have to wait for equality to be offered to us, then by raising a son with feminist ideals and an awareness of the patriarchy I'm doing more to undermine it than anything else I might choose to do or think or protest.

i don't think it's that extreme. it's saying, imo, that we need to focus on changing the structures and the sexism rather than thinking we can mold ourselves into a form that can have equality by trick or treat without anything changing.

the performed femininity AND the performed learn to speak in a lower voice and be assertive BOTH leave nothing changed in the power structures. they're just two ways of coping with them.

Nyac you habitually dismiss or won't acknowledge women can be sexist
you have a one world view
I'd say pragmatically that given human condition both male and female have propensity for good and bad

It's a shame that so many women have been sexist on this thread, supporting the OP's husband, wanting to condemn these women's behaviour, stereotyping women and just assuming that his assessment must be correct, even after he came on here and showed his sexist attitude.

oh as if anyone would argue with that sm.

the point is that in the grand scale of the atrocities women suffer at the hands of men in international patriarchy some woman who was sexist to you at work once is hardly that relevant a use of our energies is it?

thread has moved on,im particularly not discussing the op
you think I'm being sexist? because I discuss the sexist females I've encountered? as you can see other posters have given their subjective account to, and as unpalatable as you may find it.Its a lived experience. one which you seem to want to over look or dismiss as sexist itself

threats to women: rape, dv, selective abortions, lack of access to birth control and abortion etc etc oh and a woman who was sexist to sm in her office once

think it's clear where our energies are best channeled.

i'm sorry you're being held down and subjected to genital mutilation but i'm afraid feminism is busy fighting the woman who was sexist to a white, privileged woman in the west once. seriously? get a grip.

oh and women who have breathy voices - better put them at the top of the hit list.

come on people - there's just common sense sometimes.

so let's get this clear
the subjective account of sexism experienced can be acknowledged as challenging if perpetrator was male? if perpetrator female, hey get over yourself sista

it's not a competition, whose being most aggrieved
the issue is sexism, and unfortunately its commonplace

I think we need to include David Beckham in our sights, given his voice. Can we make him an honorary woman so he can share in the misogyny?

you've lost the plot saf

applying your logic no woman in first world has any cause for complaint compared to genital mutilation and child brides

so getting any jip in uk? your answer is shut up you're prosperous and white?

err no that's not my logic - that's your convenient polemic spin on it sm.

come to the grown ups table - it's alright up here.

reread your own reply to me,you have a curious style of debate
clearly you're saying bit of sexism at work to a privileged white woman,well it's small fry. how very dare I recall a experience when elsewhere in world there is mutilation and rape.

grown up table?is that a lame putdown
are you incapable of discussion without lil quips?

Nyac, we only need to include David Beckham if he puts on a baby voice while talking to men.

I've got a better idea. Let's stop being misogynist about how women or David Beckham talk and start examining misogynistic and sexist male behaviour.

SAF: 08:28: i've been advising against judging and policing other women's behaviour - but reserving the right to do it yourself? Or is voicing an opinion here not "behaviour"?

Or is it that you respect posters here enough to challenge their behaviour, but don't respect 'babygirl' enough to challenge hers?

Let's stop being misogynist about ... David Beckham

yes let's examine sexist behaviours female and male perpetrators.

Nyac, that's an excellent idea. Some people just prefer putting women down, though.

I thought about it last night. I have a particularly girly voice. I bloody hate it, tbh, but I can't change it. Also, if I'm at work, and I've just run up and down the stairs five times with donations, I tend to get a breathy voice.

Obviously I need criticising for this...

Not any men who may change their treatment of me as a result of my girly, breathy voice. Obviously

Also, if women really are deliberately doing their best Marilyn Monroe impressions at work, surely it's worth them treating them with respect, so they don't feel the need to do so? Surely? Or is that too much like common sense?