Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

Men keeping women out of the boardroom

WasabiTL and SAF seemed to have had a hard time. Those were two of the backwaters I was referring to. Banking is as old as the hills, and an industry I can imagine having ancient traditions and attitudes.

I am wondering if newer industries have less of this shit.

Men as a group are sexist in every arena. There aren't exceptions.

There are exceptions, such as where I work. People get by on ability. Unless you work here too, and know differently.

Oh FFS. I was on a hi tech trading floor with techniques and equipment that you could probably only have dreamt of back then. It wasn't a fucking backwater. What a stupid thing to say.

Every other graduate if they weren't going into the meeja in the eighties and nineties wanted a job at an investment bank.

The percentage of women on boards in 2011 gives lie to any claim that there are any progressive workplaces yet.

I'd prefer to hear from the women you work with Sanjeev.

Not taking any bloke's word about the lack of sexism in his workplace, especially from a guy who seem determined to dismiss the actual reality of sexism and the existence of the patriarchy.

Anyway even if your exceptional workplace does exist, so what? The fact is that the vast majority of workplaces are still extremely sexist and male dominated with men getting the rewards and positions of power and women being exploited at the middle or lower levels.

But apparently it's women's self defeating behaviour that causes this, not men's sexist behaviour.

I am afraid, Nyac, that I am not the OP, and you cannot frighten me away from a discussion with bad language, dismissive comments and aggressive posturing. I am not here to bully people off the board. Nor will I indulge in dick-waving about who has worked with the most advanced computer systems.

Investment banking and extending credit to merchants is an ancient practice. IT companies are a 20th century innovation. That was my point. And as I said, other posters appear to have worked in companies with backwater attitudes. I named two of them. Or is this discussion purely about you?

You called it a backwater. It wasn't. That's a stupid thing to say. You also have no evidence that Tilly's or SAF's workplaces were backwaters either.

These aren't backwater attititudes - that's the bit you're missing. Men display them everywhere, including hi tech industries like computing or the internet. For example Facebook was invented by a giant misogynist, whose initial aim for it was to rate women's attractiveness. You've displayed sexism here too on this board, with your attempts to minimise sexism or distract from it with your supposedly exceptional workplace.

As for the dick-waving insult. Do you really think you can only be challenged by a penis or someone pretending to have one? Look again. Just another example of misogyny on this thread though.

Sanjeev, nyac provided stats and a link to a report highlighting the issue. You in the other hand gave an example of where you work. So if anyone is making it about themselves it is you.

And your 'dick waving' accusation is hugely inappropriate considering where you are.

sanjeev - do i understand you think i have worked in a backwater?

' I was on a hi tech trading floor with techniques and equipment that you could probably only have dreamt of back then.' And yet you don't know me, you don't know what I do. If I started going on about having worked on supercomputers and massively parallel computing hardware, I might just be dismissed as some supergeek, so I wont bother.

Having a computer system does not make a company progressive in it's attitudes. If they discriminate on any basis - sex, race, disability - then they are displaying a backwater attitude. That was my original point.

I have seen, time and again, women promoted beyond me due to their ability, not because they flash their tits or put on a silly voice. I get the impression that this somehow disappoints you, but for me it is a sign of progression and improvement, however isolated.

Tilly, you said 'i took an employer to court for not taking my complaints about my filthy boss seriously. it was dreadful at the time - noone spoke to me at work for 3 months, but both men & women in my life got me through it.'

How would you describe this place. An oasis of enlightenment? By backwater, I meant a place with regressive attitudes and prejudice.

How come Nyac can say fucking, and I can't say dick-waving? I will refrain from further use of it though, if it upsets people.

Alice, in my earlier post I said 'in my limited experience'. I was quite up front. I put out my theory as a question, if you would look again. I hoped to elicit responses from other posters in the IT industry. Now I am being pilloried for it.

no nyac
some men are sexist,some women are
it's not a given that a man will be sexist in every arena. now that may suit your particular world view,but it's not a factual given

Partly marking ny place here.

I work in an IT company as a business analyst. I know that in my appraisal next month I am going to be told (again) I am overbearing and strident. I am deeply pissed off by this as I have seriously analysed my behaviour and know that if I did exactly the same thing and also had a penis, I would just be seen as knowledgeable and able to put my point across.

Thing is, because I am knowledgeable and able to pit my point across they need me

problem is that 'backwater' sounds like a rare, oddity, way off on the borders somewhere whereas in fact these environments are fairly standard.

you referred to me and my experiences and i can assure you they are not rare or exceptional and you don't have to go live on the moors or something to experience them..

Sanjeev you criticised nyac for relying on personal experience when she provided stats and links. I don't care whether you said in your experience or not. You are still trying to use it to counter stats and reports. Maybe your workplace is some oasis of gender equality that exists in a bubble. I doubt it, and I don't think you're very well placed to judge that at all. Someone who likes to minimise women's experiences usually isn't.

And if you really can't work out the difference between you saying dick waving and nyac saying fucking, you really might need to do some thinking.

Sanjeev,

An anecdote does not equal data.

The facts are that as computing/information technology has expanded in size and influence over the last 20 years the proportion of female participation has actually decreased, not increased.

Here is a report on this problem from the US-based National Center for Women in Technology.

www.ncwit.org/pdf/NCWIT_TheFacts_rev2010.pdf

There are numerous other reports along these lines from many countries. I am sure you can find them but this might be a place for you to start.

Again, I was asking a question in my first post - do people think that newer industries such as IT are more progressive, less sexist environments? It was a question, not an unalterable opinion. A question.

There was an IT employment thread on MN several weeks ago, and many women posters felt valued and judged by their abilities rather than their sex. It was pretty positive. That is all I was trying to bring to the discussion. And if people think that my own experiences are atypical, then I can accept that.

Cheers esperance, I will have a look.

I am off out now. I will look in again tomorrow. I am not ignoring people. Can people please see my above point though - I was asking a question.

anecdote isn't data,it is a subjective account though
and frankly all threads are subjective and uncorroborated account.we don't ask posters to give demonstrable evidence prior to posting

whole point of online blether is the words on the screen and how we form a response

Sanjeev - i think the culture of a company is set by the leadership & can vary widely within an industry.