Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

Now you see I imagine if I was in a living museum I'd have to wear a crinoline. That wouldn't work would it? I'd go for the cake though.

(my ex's dad was actually an exhibit in a living museum (tinsmith). How we laughed)

I'd like a nice Georgian townhouse, with Enlightenment windows, please. Charlotte Square maybe. I hear the National Trust had a rather lovely house going spare for a while.

Either that or a Palladian mansion. Choices choices.

I'm seeing an irony here.

When a man says he doesn't know how to use a washing machine and gets a woman to do it by acting all pathetic and helpless - then he is a sexist misogynist .

When a woman says she doesn't know how to use a piece of IT and gets a man to do it by acting all pathetic and helpless - then he is still a sexist misogynist .

I think I get it now.

what a defeatist stance soil
one individual may not eliminate workplace sexism but can still challenge,or query?certainly dont need to just accept a ststus quo or something you think men do

and really i dont recognise the statement that men should start to treat women like human beings. if thats your subjective experience, fair enough

not my experience.at all

ive met,workered with a range of personalities,skills,and behaviours. some nice some not nice male and female.gender doesnt automatically equal a set of behavious or attitudes. justv aas women arent automatically more nurturing or empathic.in fact thats a streotype thats used to pigenhole abilities and career

preoccupation with perceived male oppressive and sexist behaviours,which overlooks or denoes positive male contributions,well it is a bit stuck

yes socially and institutionally many situations have favoured males,im not disputing that.but habitually being ideologically stuck at that point lacks an intellectual rigour.

sm would you acknowledge that when you combine controlling, unpleasant, exploitative character traits and a male colleague his male privilege and his female colleagues lack of it lends him an extra edge in being a cunt to work with?

of course some people male or female are nice and some not so nice however an institutionalised imbalance of power makes the not nice of the privileged side of the equation able to exert far more of their not niceness upon their less privileged counterparts because he has a ready made tool to exploit.

what i noticed as someone who doesn't play the games of submission of enacting femininity in the workplace/school/etc was that i blundered into all manner of shitty situations where an alpha males nose was put out of joint by my non submission (in a way specifically related to my being female and not enacting what he expected a female to enact) and from that day forth i might as well have had a target painted on my forehead with regard to the kind of treatment i received from such males. and what with the inherent sexism they were generally more likely to be in positions of power too where they could make my working life extremely difficult and get away with it.

i have to say also that because i was so oblivious to what it was i was expected to perform and hadn't performed it was massively confusing to work out what the fuck was going on in these transactions and i applied all manner of 'reasonable' approaches and strategies to try and remedy whatever the fuck had gone on. it took me a long time before i understood that it really was as simple as being female, intelligent, highly skilled and quietly confident and not knowing i was expected to hide that and "simper" for these insecure thugs.

I got sacked for telling my male boss not to call me darling when I was 19.

But I suppose the OP's husband would still have had no respect for me if I'd used a little girl voice or not been able to find my way easily around a computer.

Win win all round for men.

bullying,oppression,and misuse of power is unfortunate daily occurrence
im not disputing that at all. some males have a perceived sense of entitlement and misplaced judgement. and that daily grind of bad attitude and cliche is wearing

interestingly when pg i got most jip amd jibes from a female.made digs about how id not be up to job, digs about women place at home with baby (yes really) and paying strangers to watch my dc made me inadequate. note she made no such remarks to males returning as new parents

i took an employer to court for not taking my complaints about my filthy boss seriously. it was dreadful at the time - noone spoke to me at work for 3 months, but both men & women in my life got me through it.

sounds dreadful experience.3mth long time to be frozen out
bet you found out who friends were in that situation

yes. at work i learnt how afraid everyone else was. it felt more like they were afraid of The Establishment, than anything directly relating to patriarchy.

but the establishment is patriarchal - a system of hierarchy where the minions below are not allowed to speak out against injustice is patriarchal. i think this is where much of the disagreeing centres.

well at the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious, that sort of establishment is directly related to the existence of patriarchy

oops x post

That was patriarchy in action WasabiTillyMinto. What do you mean by 'filthy boss'? Sounds nasty.

what nerve?do you think you're that searing and incisive
bit self aggrandizing to assume you have hit some mark
but as you were

i think the point is that yes i chose not to perform femininity and yes i paid the price (not sure i can really call it a choice actually - i don't think i'm capable of it - maybe one thing i do have to thank my fucked up childhood for - it didn't prepare me to play gender roles really) and yes i can observe that women who did play those games made things harder for me in a way than if we'd all stood against them BUT who am i to judge them for avoiding the consequences that i have paid?

yes i do think we can talk about how we can stand together and what kind of behaviours would aid us in fighting against this shit BUT it doesn't mean we can condemn women who do what they've been socialised to do and what is advantageous to do. i do understand the frustration - i certainly hated the whole cake baking, samosa bringing, coffee making compliance of my female colleagues but it didn't make me hate them or blame them they were just responding to the system in the way it expected them to respond. i see my awareness and resistance and ra ra ra as my PRIVILEGE! i'm lucky! albeit that luck comes with lots of walloping from the shitty stick i'm lucky to have my awareness and my self respect and my ability to resist etc.

i think you can frame it as 'i wish women didn't feel the need (and have the reality which reinforced the need) to act in these ways' rather than 'women shouldn't act like that'.

and you have to bear in mind we're isolated from each other in our oppression. there isn't a meeting where we all get to sit down and recognise together what we're up against and decide a strategy for fighting back.

well there is a meeting - it's called feminism - but those of us who are privileged enough to find our way to it shouldn't condemn the women who haven't made their way there - it's not like feminism in a patriarchy is supplied with signposts on every main road, they kind of like it being quietly tucked in a ghetto that good girls are scared to walk through on their own at night.

I have only worked for one company (IT related), for the last 20-odd years, so my experience of the workplace re company culture is limited. I have to say though, it does not sound like some of the backwaters people in here have been employed in. During that time I have worked with women peers, and seen the promoted way beyond me, because they wanted it and they had the ability. I have had first, second, third- and beyond level female managers. The current world-wide CEO is a woman. Other IT companies have female CEO's and board members.

I wonder if IT tends to be ahead of the game because it is a relatively new industry, and therefore doesn't favour dinosaur attitudes to sexism in the workplace?

Something like 4% of board members of FTSE 100 companies are female Sanjeev.

I was sacked from the trading floor of an international investment bank, asking the boss not to call me darling. It was a while ago but I don't hear that things have changed much.

What are these backwaters you are talking about?