Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

indeed workplace and co levies vary enormously
that's why big sweeping statements don't apply for all

Sanjeev - I'm not sure whether the IT industry is any more or less sexist than any other industry, as for many things, there's an xkcd for that

Of course some women act like this & some of us do to a degree even though we don't want to.

I was on a graduate IT scheme quite a few years back. Should've known what was coming when I turned up and they had a badge already made up with the male version of my given name...

My boss was a toxic mysoginyst - and a woman.

I learned that softly softly approach was best, to manipulate behind the scenes, accept not receiving the public plaudits and save email evidence instead. To speak softly and be well-groomed at all times (not cleavage etc. but a higher standard was definitely expected of the few female grads).

I also got out quickly, but some behaviours are hard to unlearn.

Fortunately my new boss (a man) expects me to sound powerful and in control (but not bossy) and can see the difference.

Now what to do about the fact I'm petite, still youngish, big of bust & sound like a teenage girl...I dunno. That's not learned - that just is. If I try to sound more like the guys am I doing myself -and feminism- any more of a service ?

(Doesn't mean I pretend I'm daft though, unless trying to get someone to do a job they ought to already be doing, because sometimes in my job, 'can do'='will do for now ad infinitem'. My fellow (males) programme managers are also known to adopt this approach).

I worked in advertising. Very young industry.

Sexist as shite. Hence the shitty ads.

I also worked in TV. again, young industry.

Got made redundant for being pregnant.

Nope, seems that old fashioned sexism is just as likely to present in young industries as it is in old ones. Wherever there are men, there is sexism, it seems...

I work in an industry where all the staff are female. The two directors comprise one man, one woman. I was given full pay maternity leave, automatic flexible working, and given a great deal of understanding and support to manage work with being a parent. As an aside, the male director was a very hands-on father.

I think that says quite a lot.

my worst sexist shitty colleague was female
made much digs and jip about pg, precious moments.had some ghastly combative modus operandi

In my experience the worst perpetrators of sexism in the work place/sexual discrimination were childless women.

My pet theory is that that's based in them trying hard to fit in with a macho work hard play hard, don't have any distractions from work such as dependants.

The least sexist and therefore best managers I had were men who shared parenting equally with their WOHM partners and therefore had experience in the difficulty that set-up sometimes brings and know that this doesn't mean that an employee can still perform brilliantly if accomodated.

There are quite a few studies about female behaviour in the workplace and the dynamic of women putting other women down. Most of it hinges on the principle of critical mass. Until that point is reached, it benefits women at the top to behave more like men and, in effect, to deny their femaleness. It's the opposite end of the spectrum to the so-called breathy stereotype we started this thread with.

Both are simply using adaptive behaviours to get by in a sexist workforce and are mostly powerless to do anything else. But it nicely detracts the attention away from the men at the top, who, if the really cared about women's rights and equality, could always create a non-sexist environment and give the "ball breaking bitch" no option but to be more supportive of her female colleagues. But the men don't do that, do they.

One of the things that is clear from this thread is that there are plenty of men who like to make up "penis rules" whenever reality doesn't quite suit them.

So Neanderthal makes up a penis rule that women who aren't interested in learning about IT or need a bit of help are apparently letting down feminism and don't deserve his respect. The fact that feminism has zero to do with women being able to unzip a zip file is neither here nor there. Penis rules trump feminism.

Or Sanjeev makes up a penis rule that manifestations of sexism must happen because workplaces are backwaters. Of course he has to use the penis rule to also change the meaning of the word backwater to include hi tech trading floors or new industries like advertising or TV.

But when you're denying women's experience, what's does a little reality matter. It can safely be ignored.

Male privilege allows men to make up these penis rules, and penis rules trump anything that women have to say.

"Male privilege allows men to make up these penis rules, and penis rules trump anything that women have to say."

Is that the reason why you only concentrate on what the male posters said (or have been reported to have said), and don't care about what women report about their workplace experiences?

Let's talk about these men making up their own version of reality, which doesn't actually reflect what women as a group experience in the workplace.

The workplace, perhaps with a few exceptions, is institutionally sexist. The reason that is, is the men who hold the power in most workplaces don't want that to change and systematically discriminate against women in a variety of ways.

you have a monomaniacal view of men as oppressors nyac
and I fear you won't be open to any debate or dialogue that doesn't adhere to your view. no doubt you dismiss other views as what about da menz or too deluded by patriarchy to see what you patently see

it does feminism discussion a disservice all your sweeping generalisations and ire

'The workplace, perhaps with a few exceptions, is institutionally sexist. The reason that is, is the men who hold the power in most workplaces don't want that to change and systematically discriminate against women in a variety of ways.'

So how to effect change? How to enable women to refuse to act up to the expected stereotype? How do we stop men from benefiting from a patriarchal structure designed to support them?

Presumably we could wait for men to wake up and say
'Hang on, I'm in a position of great privilege and the world is exactly how I like it, and I can get away with all sorts of discriminatory behaviour, and be paid more and own the world. Well, that's not fair...'
A few men might indeed become individuals who see things from a feminist perspective, but I doubt the majority would.
Or is there a better way than to wait for the oppressor to lift his boot?
Instead of yelling 'It's not fair' and getting a shrug in return, or indifference because it doesn't affect them in the same way.

Women act, and men benefit do they?

I think it's men who act actually. They created sexism, they perpetuate it. Handy to have the women "acting up" to blame though.

We need to stop their sexist behaviour. Pointing it out and acknowledging it is the first step. Like I did on this thread. Which I got a really hard time for.

Do you believe that pointing out men's sexist behaviour to them is the most efficient way of changing things? Seems to be a slow process, we've been saying it for over a century and things still aren't right.

Feminism has worked pretty well doing that.

What would you suggest?

The only people who can change patriarchy are men. It's their system. They run it.

Why would an individual choose to change a system that benefits them, especially if they don't believe it is an unequal system?
You truly believe that all women can do is ask men to change
And keep asking for the next century? Or three?

are you really so defeatist?only men can initiate change?
patriarchy is multifaceted and benefits some women who actively participate in it.it's not as straight cut as it's menz rules,they need to fix it

Is that why you are so angry?

Feminism hasn't just been asking. But you know that don't you.

What would you suggest?

Actually I don't know why I'm talking to you. You've got a chip on your shoulder about me and you won't tell me who you are. Not really into one-sided BS like that.

"you won't tell me who you are"

What an odd thing to say. Is she supposed to send you a fax of her passport?

but you're avowedly one sided nyac
given your view of men as oppressive etc and sweeping generalizations you make.you have a one world view,and don't reckon women capable of challenging patriarchy.as that's the men's remit to challenge?