Something that's been bothering me

[mumwithdice]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately and talking with DH about his work. He says that one difficulty he has is with women whom he knows to be capable and competent coming up to ask him to do really ridiculously simple things in breathy little-girl type voices (they put these voices on specifically). He tries to manage this by showing them how to do whatever it is not doing it for them. He has also had women try to avoid learning any technical things which are requirements for their jobs (opening zip files) by using the stereotype of women not being capable of techy stuff as a get-out clause.

So what bothers me? I suppose, really, I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy. That is, that there is nothing wrong with the women above because they're trying to get by in the system. And yet at the same time, I feel that actions like that do a disservice to women who can and do want to do technical things because it only reinforces stereotypes.

So can women do a disservice to other women and thus to the aims of feminism?

I am genuinely asking because I don't know the answer, it really bothers me not to know, and because I've found this board quite good at answering questions. Also, again, if this is Feminism 101, please tell me and I will look it up there.

Well, a browser issue just ate my proper, reasoned post so I guess you'll never get a fair and balanced explanation :) My DW is the OP and I only know this thread exists because she was upset she'd failed to express what she meant to, and upset again that it had met a rather aggressive response. I must admit to being mildly irked that enough detail about my job is probably present to identify me, which is why I'm rude enough to be here.

Opinions attributed to me may not be opinions I in fact hold. Women in my office are, contra the OP, actually a superb bunch and never the cause of the sort of problem that you got a weird warped description of. TBH, as an unworldly computer type and strict monogamist, I don't care what chromosomes or plumbing someone has as long as they ask me interesting technical questions! However, if losing respect for an external supplier on the 'phone when she drops the business attitude for a simper and says "that's hard, can you do it for me" or "that's a technical thing, I'll get my husband to do it" (true, and eww - is it still 1912?) makes me a monster, then I guess I'll have to learn to be happy with that label .

It's only a small fraction, but since everyone else tried and managed, that just makes it worse! (I'm not the front line support, I'm the developer - if it gets to me, it's supposed to be serious, but I will help anyone with any problem as long as they actually care to learn). If anyone thinks "I'll get my husband to do it" is an appropriate workplace statement in the 21st century I suspect I cannot meaningfully converse with them in any case.

Male problem callers annoy just as much, in different ways. Fortunately both are small proportions. Most people read the instructions instead...

Brilliant! This reminds me of the cinema queue scene in Annie Hall, where Woody Allen gets bored of the loud guy pushing his bogus theory in the queue and so calls in the original director to correct him. Sorry if this sounds garbled to non-Woody Allen fans, but it's funny!

Nobody said you were a monster NeanderChap. They said you were sexist. And that post confirms it.

But you're not complaining about the male callers, NeanderChap? You're detailing the specific, 'feminine' ways that women make you 'lose respect' for them. Men, in contrast, merely 'annoy' in ways that aren't worth mentioning.

Is it any wonder that posters on this thread have picked up on that?

X-post with Abigail: who has also picked up on that!

Hello NeanderChap. Good of you to clarify things. First of all, I think it is a shame that mumwithdice has got upset over this thread. I hope she is still reading, because she has actually sparked off a very interesting discussion - which is in part why this thread has been heated.

Mumwithdice, you asked if you were asking a feminism 101 question - I think in a way you were because it is basic feminism to not judge other women for how they adapt to life in male dominated society. But then again, it seems that this question is not so very simple after all - just look at the controversy it has caused.

And that is what feminism is like IMO. It is not easy. It is not easy to think things through and it is not easy to not judge, it is not easy to take off the patriarchy goggles and see. Well I don't think it is anyway.

Edam said this earlier Shame the important message about looking beneath the surface and seeing how misogyny blames women for the effects of misogyny has been kind of lost

And I think she was 100% bang on the money.

And I think NeanderChap's helpful post has just confirmed this really.

Hah, x posts.

You explained better though Victor, thank you.

And Beachcomber

I wonder if we will get deleted, because we are saying the same thing as Nyac said at the beginning of the thread.

We may be being less blunt (just) but it is the same thing.

neanderchap - don't know if you have read the thread but have you considered that you are perceiving them as simpering or whatever it's being called now rather than them actually doing it? could you not simply be hearing their nervous voice? their having to ask for help with something they cannot do (whether you perceive this as shameful or not)? perhaps they're saying - that's hard can you do it for me because it's hard and they can't do it - how exactly do they simper at this point?

the point being are you capable of questioning your assumptions and judgements of them? are you aware that what you perceive will be tainted by your own assumptions and prejudices?

And frankly, at this;

If anyone thinks "I'll get my husband to do it" is an appropriate workplace statement in the 21st century I suspect I cannot meaningfully converse with them in any case.

Really?

Where my DH works the staff all take turns to take home the small amount of laundry that is generated. I know that the male boss of the company 'gets his wife to do it'. Perhaps I should consider that I cannot ever have a meaningful conversation with him as he seems to think it is appropriate to reveal in the workplace that he is not able to do a straightforward task like work a basic electrical appliance?

This post is probably going to take a while for me to post and x-post massively with all and sundry so apologies but I haven't got a lot of time to do long posts at the moment.

When I first saw the OP on Sunday, it made me rage and I just wanted to post "What a load of sexist shite and how anti-women". Nyac said that but better. I didn't see her deleted posts because I had to go out, but tbh all she has said is what I wanted to say. I was dismayed when I came to the thread and found a load of "ooh yes I hate it when women do this too" type of comments. Is this really what feminism is about? I don't think so.

Nyac has also repeatedly asked to examine the man's behaviour (i.e. th OPs DH) rather than the behaviour of these women we have never met and only have his word for it. I think that is right. The rest of the internet and society like to judge women's behaviour even in the face of men's appalling behaviour. Think of the "Why doesn't she leave him", "What does she expect wearing that" type of comments.

I also think that focussing on "breathy women" is a bit misleading and a sidetrack. If it hadn't been breathy voices it would have been some other behavioural trait he would have commented on (such as the delightful cleavage comment upthread). And those of you condemning these women for their change in voice, which you perceive that you don't do personally (because let's face it we all do things sub-conciously) may have been included in his other behavioural trait. I have the opposite issue, for example, my voice is "strident". I get punished for that by the patriarchy in ways strident men don't. And this is because the patriarchy set the levels of women behaviour and set them to be higher than those of men. That is why the OPs DH felt it was OK to comment on these women in derogatory terms. He is supported by society.

"a superb bunch and never the cause of the sort of problem that you got a weird warped description of"

So they don't use breathy little girl voices and let feminism down because they don't know how to unzip a zip file. Your wife got it wrong then? Good to know.

"TBH, as an unworldly computer type and strict monogamist, I don't care what chromosomes or plumbing someone has as long as they ask me interesting technical questions!"

Except all this is about women and how they behave and what you reported to your wife. So either she's misreporting or you do actually care about sex.

"losing respect for an external supplier on the 'phone when she drops the business attitude for a simper and says "that's hard, can you do it for me" or "that's a technical thing, I'll get my husband to do it""

That's sexist. As I said at the beginning to your wife, you should stop being like that. Also respecting people based on their IT/technical abilities isn't very sensible.

Scottishmummy, people have been generalising about women right throughout this thread.

Nobody has said a word about that. Note that men are socialised to be sexist, and that needs the cavalry though apparently.

NeanderChap - thank you for posting. i also enjoyed mumwithdice's thread a while ago about geeky women.

i work in a technical role and see men & women acting up to their sex's stereotypes frequently. the one i see the most is 'men pretending to understand something they clearly dont have a clue about' - thats not an anti man statement, they/you are just in the majority & being a women they cannot possibly let on they dont know everything to me!

the posters who dont think this stereotyped behaviour occurs, do you work in a technical environment?

It's lovely to come to the feminist section to hear a man talking about women simpering and how he doesn't respect them for it. We've made so much progress.

mumwithdice has posted on here many times before and I always got the impression she was willing to engage and learn, even though by her own admission she didn't know very much about feminist theory.

I think what's happened here is that she made a classic mistake as the result of wanting to start an interesting discussion. For all we know NeanderChap may come home and talk just as much about the annoying characteristics of his male colleagues, but because mumwithdice was posting on a feminist board she chose to concentrate on the women and their behaviour because for her the question was 'why do women behave in a way that seems to encourage sexist stereotyping and so perpetuate misogyny.'

As a beginner feminist I'd say that's a fair question, because you need to lose some of the patriarchal goggles before you start being able to see how that question should actually be 'what is about patriarchy that encourages/forces women to behave in a way that is counterproductive to equality.'

There have been some really interesting points made on this thread. I hope mumwithdice has learned something from them (and apologies if I've been really patronising saying the above).

I'd love to be in a museum. I could be in the drawer underneath the Andrea Dworkin exhibit. She also hoped to be in a museum one day.

That would be the day where sexism and misogyny no longer exist, where men don't describe the women they work with as simpering, and don't decide to withdraw respect based on nothing meaningful (knowledge of IT) and where their wives post about it on notice boards encouraging more bashing of women.

You challenged me generalising about men. You didn't challenge the generalisations about women here. Noted.

I beg to disagree sunshine - I think the question should be "Why are so many men still sexist in the workplace, how do we measure the harm it does to women, and how do we fight them when they are".

I agree with you Nyac. I think that's the next stage in thinking and what we should be asking. I just think some people have to pass through a few stages before they see that. I was just posting a reply to say something very smilar but then I refreshed first and saw your reply.

BTW at I'd love to be in a museum. I could be in the drawer underneath the Andrea Dworkin exhibit.

yes agree gender sterotyping re knowledge.

in my field knowledge,professional competencxy and bahaviours are demonstarble and measurable.and yes ive seen female junior staff and students exhibit limiting behaviours, such as being reticent to speak first (despite knowing) and is extermly frustrating

my significant mentor when i first qualified was from similar childhood socio-econmic background,and observed i let the posh kids and horahs talk over me,was too deferential and frankly lacked confidence despite heaps of knowledge/abilities. embarked on some informal mentoring and it really was an eye opener

in work now, i use and try imbue that experience of learning professional composure, professional confidence and ability to confidently engage and be listened to. its a skill and set of behavious i try demonstare to male and female

yes some women can be easily shuvved aside or resort to cliched behaviors, but cannot simply attribute this to society without a recognition of impact of ones actions.there is a personal responsibility to moderate ones actions too

Are we still talking about how women behave in the workplace?

How about sexist men?

Or do they just not exist? Well they do. I've seen some women treated horribly by them and they infect a whole workplace. There are very few workplaces that aren't covered in institutional sexism. It's why women earn 20% less than men, why they are segregated into junior jobs whilst men get the most powerful positions in organisations and promote in their own image (other men).