Derailers... Help? <possible triggers>

[TakingBackSaturday]

How do you deal with them?

The derailer in question is a close friend, who identifies as a feminist. However, of late, I've noticed she has a tendency to derail feminist conversations; one of which was a conversation about rape, in which she insisted it was unfair on men to exclaim that "men shouldn't rape", because, as far as she was concerned, it labelled all men rapists. She's supposed to be an English student, so should have more awareness of how the English language works... But still.

She also went on to explain how this comment was unfair, on the basis that it assumes all rapists are men, and it eliminates the victims of female rapists. We're both in England, so under our law, the presence of a penis is needed for a rape. When she was challenged on this, she carried on to say we didn't know how many male victims of women rapists there are, considering how shaming it must be for a man to admit he's been raped by a woman.

How do I explain to her that forcing women to talk about men in a predominantly woman based experience is derailing, and misogynistic? Because, atm, she won't listen to anyone who tries to explain.

Why Shite, because I have a different view from yours? Or do you have evidence of your claims.

No not because you have different views but because you are wrong. Talking about rape is not as bad as raping. Not even in the same ball park.

Oh and where have the oppressed ever become the oppressors?

Ignoring some of the rubbish that has been posted on this thread and getting back to the OP's original post -

I think there's a really interesting issue here - on the one hand as your friend says we shouldn't place all discussion around rape as being male perpetrator female victim. Don't think many people seriously think there are a great deal of women perpetrators (and as you point out, technically none in English law), but there are certainly male victims whose experiences are real.

But on the other hand, male rape against women IS related (in a way that male-male or male-child rape is not) to overall cultural misogyny - there are men who think that women in certain circumstances owe it to them, or just don't matter - they're not real people, just there for their own benefit. And you can't have a conversation about these issues without framing it within the male-female cultural set up that we have. So it will derail the discussion if your friend keeps pointing out that it's not just men raping women.

Have you asked your friend why she feels men and women's experiences have to be equalised to be fair? Have you asked her what she thinks the merits of debating men's experience of rape equally are with a group of women?

It's ok surely to focus on the effect of something on women even if it happens to men too. As it would be vice versa.

What is wrong with "men shouldn't rape"?
Ask her if it is wrong to say
Women shouldn't shoplift
Children shouldn't hit other children
MPs shouldn't fiddle their expenses
People in the armed forces shouldn't be homophobic
People who live in UK cities shouldn't vandalise municipal buildings
Anything really
You are right that people who speak and understand English do not take these statements to mean that all people in the group do it, but that some do, and the comment is aimed at them.

You could ask her why she thinks that a man being raped is more shaming than a woman being raped.
You could ask her for statistics about women carrying out sexual assaults as you weren't aware it was such a big problem. And whether there is a high prevalence of women raping men, women and children around the world as men raping men, women and children.
You could point out that as a feminist the focus is necessarily on improving things for females but that a happy by-product of that is that things will be improved for eg men who are raped by other men. And all of the ones attacked by women as well. Personally I think that males are more likely to fall prey to coercion by women than being physically overpowered but that the numbers are small compared to the numbers of females who are coerced. Given that coercing women, in our society, is seen as part of standard sexual behaviour.

In terms of rape, women are the huge majority of victims, one reason that men as civtims of rape is not often reffered to is that it is a much less frequent occurance. If the world focused it's attention on stopping all sexual violence and rapes against women primarily and this resulted in its dissapearance, then rapes and sexual violence against men would dissapear too. If you liberate the most opressed group in a society then as a result of that you liberate everyone else too, this is why Rad Fems focus their attention on women's issues, you can't fix everything right away, it's best to start on changing one big thing, and once that's dealt with we can fine tune the smaller issues. If all feminists diluted their efforts to focus on inequalities that other people face too, they would be less likely to succeed. I hope that makes sense, been lurking for a while, and this is my first post in a debate.

Welcome, allthegoodnames. Your post certainly makes sense. :) Purpleroses, handbagCrab and SardineQueen, your posts are so good, I can't think of a response to them. Just wanted to let you know I'm not ignoring you. Just can't think of much more than a "well said", atm

Russia
Many ex colonial countries
china
Arguably in some unions at some points in history
Many other examples, if you had botherd to read the link you would have found that Frierie was a femanist

I agree with changes the frameing of the question and especialy with talking about all rape and all sexual abuse. I only have one issue with the big change that allthegoodnames, talks about. The uk is not a country that has ever gone for the huge cultural shift outside of wartime. Even women getting the vote was brought in in bits rather than in one go. I would want the big change absolutly, but I fear that changing hearts and minds is about appealing to the largest group of people in order to build the pressure for social change.

And lets nail the last point shall we, yes I do say that a comparison between the act of rape and telling people what to think. It is about the abuse of power, also the abuse of the individual, and also about how it dehumanises. Why on earth are women, all women subject to being 2nd class citizens, becouse they are told they are. In this particular society male domination has been brought about by refusing to engage with women as equal partners, as subjigating them becouse of their sex, using their sex to ignorte their veiws. I presume all the rad fems agree with that?

That is feminism 101, you want to speak for some women go right ahead but do so in a way that makes it clear thats what your doing, want to speak and carry all women with you. Try harder to find language that is inclusive but still allows expression.

I too welcome allthegood, I hope you are entertained and stimulated in equal parts.

"women shouldn't shoplift"

If I saw that sentence I would immediately ask "why single women out?"

"Russia
Many ex colonial countries
china
Arguably in some unions at some points in history
Many other examples, if you had botherd to read the link you would have found that Frierie was a femanist"

What is this list referring to?

WW but you wouldn't think "you are saying that all women shoplift" which is what the OP's friend was saying.

allthegoodnames only from posting on here! When I have to talk about these things IRL I find it very hard.

I would think that this would deem shoplifting to be only a women specific issue, and nothing to do with men at all. It is not as neutral and much more accusatory than "people shouldn't shoplift".

Basil I was providing examples for handdived. Always happy to offer evidence of my facts, I agree with you though that how people "read" things is cultural as well as genderd.

Examples of what though?

Again. Women can't rape. We don't have penises.

"That is feminism 101"

No it isn't. It's a twisted MRA parody of feminism. Where did you pick it up Notthefullshilling? My advice would be to steer clear of MRAs because they won't teach you anything useful about feminism.

OP, how ironic that your thread about derailers is being derailed.

Nyac, I was just thinking that...

Maybe a different title, next time? Maybe they thought it was a role call, or something?

Oppresion Basil. Look up thread.

Women are not able to rape TBS, That is not what I was talking about, I was talking about male on male and adult on child rape.

I wasn't referring to you, notthefullshilling. I was referring to WidowWadman.

Okay then Nyac, where does sexism and the lack of female equality come from then? What is feminism 101? And sorry but I am never any good at holding all these initials in my head, what is MRA?

TBS "THEY"???, what an extremely offensive way to describe people, almost as if you see us as diffrent to you

"they" = the derailers.

I can't be arsed with this today.

Examples of oppression?

What sort of oppression?