Derailers... Help? <possible triggers>

[TakingBackSaturday]

How do you deal with them?

The derailer in question is a close friend, who identifies as a feminist. However, of late, I've noticed she has a tendency to derail feminist conversations; one of which was a conversation about rape, in which she insisted it was unfair on men to exclaim that "men shouldn't rape", because, as far as she was concerned, it labelled all men rapists. She's supposed to be an English student, so should have more awareness of how the English language works... But still.

She also went on to explain how this comment was unfair, on the basis that it assumes all rapists are men, and it eliminates the victims of female rapists. We're both in England, so under our law, the presence of a penis is needed for a rape. When she was challenged on this, she carried on to say we didn't know how many male victims of women rapists there are, considering how shaming it must be for a man to admit he's been raped by a woman.

How do I explain to her that forcing women to talk about men in a predominantly woman based experience is derailing, and misogynistic? Because, atm, she won't listen to anyone who tries to explain.

Yup men raping women they have relationships with is the most common kind of rape.

I really don't think men consciously choose to rape or not to rape any more than you or I chooses to murder or not murder. It's just not on most men's radar.

A lot of radical feminists (I'm not saying anyone here and I don't think I did say anyone on here) do see all men as potential rapists. I don't think that's helpful.

Men that DO rape make a conscious decision to rape.

HTH.

PS. We're not starting with the rad fem bashing again, are we?

Yes, I know that TakingBackSunday. Realise I could have phrased it better. There's really no need to do a patronising HTH though, why not just say it?

Do you think I'm bashing you? I'm disagreeing. That's fine as far as I'm aware. I'm not a radical feminist, but appreciate people have different views.

I'm hardly saying "fucking stupid radical feminists, they're so dumb" am I? Nor do I think it. So please stop with the "bashing" when I'm merely disagreeing.

So who are these radical feminists who think all men are rapists then?

Thanks for the clarification. I was envisioning a legal loophole for rapists there.

You have, though, yellowraincoat, attributed the idea that "a lot of radfems (not saying anyone here) do see all men as potential rapists" to radfems. Which is a little disrespectful to do that when nobody, radfem or otherwise, has said this on this thread.

Well I don't know what people mean by all men being potential rapists.

On one level, as long as they have a functioning penis, that's technically true. Just as we're all potential sexual abusers - and under some jurisdictions, where rape doesn't require a penis, all women are also potential rapists. Everyone is, because everyone can commit rape. Just as we're all potential murderers, or potential torturers, or potential concentration camp guards or whatever.

I don't really know what is meant by it. We're all potential anythings. It's kind of meaningless. IMO.

All men are potential rapists, she said, basil.

A conversation had on MN before. Some people don't understand the meaning of the word "potential", unfortunately.

Yes basil, agree with that.

Just to add into the mix, when men rape other men or transexual people, they see them as "proxy women," - think of the situation in prisons or in the military, for example or other settings where if there aren't enough women to demean and degrade, those seen as not-as-masculine-as-other-men will serve as a stand in. So, even in cases where victims are male, their assaults are the result of misogynist beliefs and cultural norms.

That's an interesting point Kritiq - guess you could put young boys in the same category. Or is it just a case of physical force - they need to be stronger than the victim?

I don't agree with that Kritiq - male on male rapes are a male experience; you're taking something that is all about male victimisation and bringing women's problems up; 'what about the wimminz', perhaps.

Secondly, don't forget that rape is about power, not sex. Male rape victims aren't 'proxy women', because sex isn't what's desired - rapists aren't aiming for a pleasurable experience, they're aiming for a show of dominance.

If you think I'm raising a "what about the wimminz," then you are missing the point here by a country mile.

If male sexual abuse of other men (yes, and boys) isn't within a wider context of misogyny, why are the most demeaning slurs men use against other men ones that "feminise" them (e.g. nancy boy, sissy, pussy, etc.) and why the popular reference to a raped man as being the perpetrator's, "bitch?"

Of course rape is exerting power and control, but using the sexual act as a means of exerting it. The rapist may also gain sexual gratification, which they associate with having power and being able to gain this by harming someone else.

In order to justify doing something like this to another person, they may have to "dehumanise" them. If they are female and they see women as inferior, job done. If they are children and they see children as inferior, no problem. If they are female to male transexual, they are uppity women who are trying to be men. If they are male to female transexual, they are men who've shown themselves to be less than men. If they are male, they have to convince themselves they "aren't man enough" to legitimise what they do.

So yes, it's about power and control, but about the power of masculinity over those who aren't "man enough," whether they be actual women, or proxy women. If they have a hole to penetrate, they'll do.

I disagree with that and I'll tell you why. Because it re-frames male victimization through the lens of women's victimization, without empathizing with the male's experience of what he actually feels about his own victimization. When a man is raped by another man, he doesn't feel violated because he feels like a woman, he feels violated because he was raped. To say that because women are penetrated during sex, that a man being penetrated feels violated because it makes him feel like a woman is to deny the actual victimization of that man as a man, and re-frame his own victimization as that of the victimization of a woman by proxy.

When a man is called a bitch because he is a rape victim, or because he's seen as weak in any way, it's not that he's being called a woman, it's that he's being called less of a man, or not a real man. Failing to fulfil a male gender role isn't the same as fulfilling a female gender role.

ecclesvat, you have completely misunderstood Kritique's post.

She wasnt' saying that men feel like women when they are raped.

She was saying that the men who are raping them, are using them as ersatz-women - IE not men. All other men who don't fit in with masculinist culture, ie gay men, children, effete men, thoughtful men - can be successfully demoted to the status of not Real Men - ie women or the wrong sort of men.

Did you really not get the difference? Because I can't work out if you are not reading the posts carefully enough or if you are pretending that people are saying what they're not saying.

How can you possibly have got from Kritique's post, what you say you got?

You keep doing this. I suggest you need to read the posts more carefully, otherwise you may give rise to the perception, that you are deliberately misrepresenting what people are saying.

I don't think think that woman=not man, and vice versa. Not being a 'real man' is not the same thing as being a woman.

Come on, of course it is. There are only two genders, those who are not men are women - or at least that's how our culture sees it.

In masculinist culture, that's exactly what it means.

There are men, who are the measure of all things, and then there are everyone else.

Yes, BR, probably

Interesting that Archimedes thinks the law should be changed - so you think there are hordes of women who go around sodomising men with dildos and then getting away with because women can't be charged with rape?

I said in my post it was very rare,