I need your help

[LordLurkin]

It might seem odd a man coming into a feminist section of mumsnet to ask for help, but I think that this might be the best place to ask.

I was moved to write here after stumbling across this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1413963-Sexual-violence-and-the-cult-of-masculinity

I am the son of a hyper masculine father who only learned to be a real (as in caring and not loutish I hope ) man after meeting my beloved wife 14 years ago. The reason I'm asking you for help is that although I have examined and improved my own views and behavior to a great extent (not perfect by a long shot ) I find the views of a lot of my male friends and associates pretty offensive and downright bloody wrong where women are concerned. There is also a view that seems so prevalent that a man who dosent run with those views is somehow less manly.

When I have spoken out in a group situation about some vile joke or stupid shitty comment I am often met with jeers of "pussywhipped" and similar comments.

What I am asking for is some ideas and help in challenging this stupidity and nastyness in a more effective and lasting way. As you can imagine this seems a daunting task but one I feel needs doing for the good of all, both male and female.

In short I need your input ladies.

I think your best bet is to have a look at this website and see if you can find a UK version.

If not, why not set one up?

Also have you discussed this with your DW and asked for her input?

And then I'd suggest that you change your friends. If you're hanging around with idiot men who don't like women, that's going to make you feel shit every time you're in a social situation; you wouldn't hang about with a bunch of racists if you're an anti racist would you, so why hang about with misogynists if you're in favour of equality between men and women?

OP, I think that you won't get anywhere if you're the sourpuss that only ever seems to kill the mood (however justified). Challenging sexist views is laudable, but I think a softly, softly approach is the most likely way to change minds.

Also, I don't think this is a good section for advice, as you're unlikely to have much of a spectrum; I imagine most women here (understandably) wouldn't stand for a forgiving, slow approach.

Try finding a group of men who dont start acting like that. Its probably the reason why most of the people I call true friends are all women.

The worst is that they dont seem to know its wrong. And sometimes it would be nice to hang out with a group of guys and there just not be the dickish behavior.

Thanks for the link will check it out :)

There are plenty of groups of men who don't act like that, although I guess it largely depends on class/area.

i don't think it depends on class/area with all due respect ecclesvet but I do commend the OP for posting. Thank you. I think you know what to do.

As Audre Lorde said:

"The Master's tools will never dismantle the Master's house."

Best wishes.

do you think that ethnic minorities should take a forgiving, softly, softly approach to being surrounded by racism?

does male dominance somehow deserve more patience and tolerance than white supremacy?

lordlurkin - i went through to that link. it was really positive seeing a group of proactive men getting on and taking a stand against male dominance. it would be great if you could start up some kind of network or men's group that shared your views. that would make it easier i guess, to act as part of a group rather than feel so alone in it. that's what we feminists do - seek support in a group that can see patriarchy for what it is and who we can therefore talk to and share understanding with. i personally think that men have to come together and do this themselves though - it has to be a male generated movement whereby men start standing up to the bs culture you're describing and not being bullied and cowed into conformity. and they need to acknowledge that standing by and not saying or doing anything makes them complicit.

Dp often says the same to me, but a direct challenge is rarely effective - as you've found. He tends to go for stuff like rolled eyes, or just outright ignoring the comment and completely changing the subject. Make the offensive person look stupid and leave them with nothing to complain about iyswim?

Banter. The polite way to describe Being A Cunt

eccles.... there are times where blatently saying thats enough is the only responce that will do.

What else is there to say to a man who looks at a woman who walked through the door and states " Id like to throw her over the table and fuck her arse til the cries of no turn to yes"?

Thats what I was accused of being pussywhipped was for objecting to.

i'd go direct, 'are you telling us you're a rapist then? you're announcing publicly that you'd enjoy anally raping a woman? remind me to warn every woman i know to beware of you'.

Softly softly isn't the same as avoiding confrontation, either.

A direct "Wow that was offensive" provokes an argument about how it was just a joke, mate, y'know, all the guys together. "Yeah. Right. So what do you think of the footie results yesterday" makes it clear you weren't amused without backing the other person into defending their position, and losing face if they change their mind.

X post.

You need new friends!

standing by and saying nothing is collusion.

it's a basic concept we teach our children about bullying for example. does it not apply to grown men? because they're scared other men will pick on them?

I think the best response to something like that would be:

"have you ever actually had sex with a woman? because you sound like you've only ever come across sex in porn movies, you do know that women don't actually act like that when they're having real sex, don't you?"

Piss taking is always good.

I prefer swallowedafly's way of going about it. That one had to be openly challenged.

But perhaps a mixture of the two aproaches might work out better.

Love the site Basil, and am writing to them to get ideas and support.

I cant ignore the issue. For to long I was part of the issue and all it ever did was harm me. I cant ignore it and let my brothers and sisters in humanity down like that. If I can break out of the mindset then so can others with help and guidance.

number 4 on what can I do from Basils link. :)

1. Remember that our silence is affirming. When we

choose not to speak out against domestic and sexual violence, we are supporting it.

Excellent, good luck with it LL.

I think men have to stand up and be counted really. It's the only way that things will change. It might be a bit awful because people really hate having their ideas challenged, especially when they know they're in the wrong - but you may also find that the men in the group who are uncomfortable as you are, wiht the banter, are actually quite relieved to have it challenged and are given courage to stand with you.

And yes, it might mean you lose a few friends - but tbh there are certain friends who become so onerous, that after a while you realise you no longer want to be their friends anyway. And the ones who do value you, will value you more and might actually become better company. I've noticed that it's generally 1 or 2 people in a group, who set a dynamic sometimes against the inclinations of the rest of the group and when they're gone, that dynamic is no longer there and the whole group changes.

It's funny, dh always reminds me that most men do not conform to the stereotype that the statistics suggest exist.

He has faith in the decency of most men. When I look around I see my brothers, my Dad, my friends and my colleagues who wouldn't participate in offensive talk/jokes/whatever.

Good men are out there. They are not a minority.

Point 4. is Feminist 101.

Good luck indeed LL. I commend you and you will lose 'friends' but you will gain peace of mind. I know what I'd rather have.

No Dworkin I will not lose friends ..... I will replace certain friends with better friends who will be better people to be around.

The peace of mind is priceless though. :)

" Id like to throw her over the table and fuck her arse til the cries of no turn to yes"?

This is not male banter. It is not common. It is not accepted in any male company that I have ever been in. Do you hang out with BNP/EDL lowlifes? Unfortunately, quoting this type of atypical crap will just add grist to the mill, that all (of us) men are rapists. I don't blame you, I just know the reaction it will get.

A gang of frat boys at Yale a couple of years back were going around their campus shouting "No means yes, and yes means anal". These attitudes aren't that uncommon. Hence the number of rape themes in pornography, which is incredibly popular amongst a lot of men.

Story here: www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2065849,00.html

Given the epidemic of sexual assault and rape too, it's clear that these attitudes aren't exactly atypical amongst a large minority of men.

LordLurkin im gonna out myself as your wife cos right now im that bloody proud to be at your side.

No Sanjeev that was what my DH experienced on a night out with some of the men he worked with everyday. Not BNP/EDL lowlifes tht we know of but men from the factory he recently got a job in to pay the bills that my wages dont quite cover.

Good for you OP, although I'm afraid my advice doesn't go any further than get new friends. Why should you have to listen to shit like that? I think it's great that you do want to challenge it though and wish you all the best

. I think perhaps engaging people about your own situation may help, trying to draw out your own background. The charitable part of me hopes that maybe people who make comments like that are doing it from a place of pain and giving them a way to discuss where their attitudes have come from may encourage them to change?