I need your help

[LordLurkin]

It might seem odd a man coming into a feminist section of mumsnet to ask for help, but I think that this might be the best place to ask.

I was moved to write here after stumbling across this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1413963-Sexual-violence-and-the-cult-of-masculinity

I am the son of a hyper masculine father who only learned to be a real (as in caring and not loutish I hope ) man after meeting my beloved wife 14 years ago. The reason I'm asking you for help is that although I have examined and improved my own views and behavior to a great extent (not perfect by a long shot ) I find the views of a lot of my male friends and associates pretty offensive and downright bloody wrong where women are concerned. There is also a view that seems so prevalent that a man who dosent run with those views is somehow less manly.

When I have spoken out in a group situation about some vile joke or stupid shitty comment I am often met with jeers of "pussywhipped" and similar comments.

What I am asking for is some ideas and help in challenging this stupidity and nastyness in a more effective and lasting way. As you can imagine this seems a daunting task but one I feel needs doing for the good of all, both male and female.

In short I need your input ladies.

My advice would be to ditch the friends. I doubt anything you could say or do would make them change the things they believe, say or do. I've (shall we say) "let go" friends and family who have made racist, sexist or homophobic comments far less violent than your "friend" without giving a second thought.

Neither DH nor I have a large circle of friends, nor particularly want to. But, none of the people we enjoy spending time with would tolerate a remark even in the ballpark of the one you stated. Folks we like best tend to be ones we've met through having mutual interests, so perhaps you're more likely to find friends who aren't arseholes by joining an interest club or website and going to gatherings to "test drive" people.

Life's too short to have people in it who make you feel miserable and unable to be true to yourself.

Ah, just read the extra info. Well, if it's just peeps you work with, then soon as you clock off, you can write them off. It's not even like it's old mates you feel some kind of loyalty to or something. You aren't contracted so socialise with arseholes, only work with them (and I would hope your employers have an Equal Opportunities and/or Dignity at Work policy so they at least keep their gobs shut on company time.)

Frat boys at Yale - how do you make the leap between a gang of boys at Yale and the larger male population, Nyac? Girls in the UK are involved in gang violence and selling drugs;
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8533185.stm

I am not closed-minded enough to assume or imply that this is common or typical behaviour. I don't roll out accusations that this is what I should expect my daughter or her friends to be involved in.

'Aren't that uncommon'. 'Incredibly popular'. I know why women get so angry on here now when men make comments about women based upon unsubstantiated, lazy stereotypes. Instead of 'epidemic', please provide solid figures of numbers and percentages. Or are you suggesting that my wife and daughter upstairs are in danger of me waltzing up there and raping them? Why not hey, I am a man after all. I'll probably get away with it as well, if the judge is a man.

Back to the OP. I am sorry that your dad was a shit, but you have turned out to be a decent enough chap. Don't let him or a few factory workers tarnish 50 per cent of the population.

I just explained the connection.

THE MASSIVE AMOUNT OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE THAT MEN INFLICT UPON WOMEN ACROSS THE WORLD. THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF MEN DOING IT. IT'S NOT ATYPICAL. OR DO YOU JUST THINK IT'S ONE MAN INFLICTING ALL THE RAPES AND SEXUAL ASSAULTS? MUMSNET ARE DOING A SURVEY ON IT AT THE MOMENT.

Sorry for the caps but it seemed like you didn't see my argument the first time, so I' thought I'd draw closer attention to it.

I dont think that LordLurkin was for one second saying that 50% of the population were shits. But from what I gather it often ends up that one or two gobby shits drag a group down that sexist route and after that is just gets nasty

I have no idea what a word like 'massive' means in terms of a crime. One crime is too many, but is it 'massive'? One rape is too many. Some men are doing it -too many. But one is too many. The global population is 6,840,507,003, so we have approx. 3,420,253,000 men in the world. How many are rapists? A whole lot, according to you, but my god, I feel like you are accusing us all.

Actually, it seems surreal to have to quantify these type of acts. You quoted an incident at Yale. I commented on how atypical Yale students are. I quoted an incidence of female gang violence. You ignored it. How would you quantify female gang violence in the UK? Or do they get a free pass because they are female?

KoPo, if the gobby shits drag the others down, then the gobby shits need to be confronted. Sad but true. The rest will follow like sheep.

Question Time is boring me now, despite Simon Scharma's presence, so I will take my leave. I'll have a look back later. LL, chin up fellah, don't let the knob heads grind you down.

LordLurkin - have you tried a simple "Really?" and an uncomprehending, unamused look?

If that has no effect, how about "How would you feel if someone talked like that about your sister/mother/daughter?"

-NB- this approach is less than ideal, as it implies that women only have worth because of their relationship to other men, rather than in their own right. However, if you need to go in with baby steps, rather than tacking it head-on, using language and concepts that are familiar to the person you are tackling can be an effective way to engage with them.

You can maybe follow it up with a comment that it is because of attitudes like his that you worry for how your daughters/nieces will get on.

sanjeev no one has accused them all. this thread is by a man. what this thread is about really is what GOOD men can do in the face of these attitudes and behaviours.

if good men are the majority - and i sincerely hope they are - why don't they stand up against this kind of thing? why instead of outrage that women are pointing out there is an element amongst men that is violent towards women rather than outrage at men who do this and wanting to stop them?

the thread is about how men should stand up against this stuff rather than be implicit in it by defending it, denying it is a major problem in your case and not standing up to men who display these attitudes in front of them.

if you're worried about the reputation of men then it is the rapists and abusers you should be fighting to change, not feminists talking about them.

incidentally you're right yale students are quite atypical - they're part of an elite that will one day be in positions of power such as sitting as a judge in court where rape cases are tried.

please look on this board and read the case of a gang raped 11 yo where the judge was lenient because he deemed the 11yo to have been willing and to have looked at least 14. this is not imaginary stuff - it is real. these attitudes exist and are even sitting in positions of great power. there are the rapists and then there are their colluders, like that judge.

Good for you OP

I think this stuff is really difficult. It is difficult challenging this stuff whether you are a man or a woman. I must ask DH what he does / says if someone says something horrible but I suspect the answer is he changes the subject / goes to the bar or whatever. This type of conversation and sharing of images on mobiles etc is so prevalent that trying to challenge it while you are part of that group must be horrible.

I know that I have had images shared with me by people at work (years ago) which I was really at but I didn't know what to say about it and am sorry to say that I went along with it. I was young and didn't really know what to think. So for a bloke who is supposed to find these things funny... Difficult.

In all honesty I don't know what to suggest. What will be most effective. I think that showing that you think they are immature/pathetic is probably the thing that will make most men pause.

I think changing your friends would be good - and socialising with workmates is not compulsory!

Incidentally I think that there are a couple of men who post in the feminism section regularly - maybe they will see the thread and say how they handle these situations.

Things you can say:

"Lads, come on, it's the 21st century. You've been watching too much Life on Mars".
"That's a bit dark, mate. Anyway, isn't it your round?".
"Hope she doesn't return the favour, or you'd be walking like John Wayne for the rest of the year".

My dad would probably go for the middle statement. My DH would probably go for the first statement.

Things you can do:

Make nicer friends. A lot of people think you can always tell a person by their friends, so you don't want to be associated with people like this. 'Nice' friends tend to be found in zones where families tend to cluster, eg schools, DIY shops, religious places, family hotels and so on.

Set up a blog or website challenging this behaviour, as other people have said.

Oh and welcome to the section LL and KoPo

'if good men are the majority - and i sincerely hope they are - why don't they stand up against this kind of thing? why instead of outrage that women are pointing out there is an element amongst men that is violent towards women rather than outrage at men who do this and wanting to stop them?'

Firstly, it is hard to stand up against something that you have never heard. None of my friends ever discuss raping a woman. There is no outrage that women are pointing this out - this subject was started by a man. I AM outraged by rapists, but I believe there is an entire law enforcement agency out to stop them and punish them. How do you or I stop a rapist?

Secondly, as I said earlier, confront it. Directly. Do not pussy foot around or try to turn it into some kind of joke, because no doubt the protagonist will say the same himself - "jeez, calm down, only joking mate!' or words to that effect. Alternatively, just don't go out with them, now you know what they are like.

That is where you may struggle to get a response from other men in here too. I doubt they come across rape jokes all that often. I could be wrong though. Maybe I just lead a sheltered existence.

rape jokes

People like jimmy carr and ricky gervais are very popular mainstream comedians.
There are facebook groups all over the place about "it's not rape if you say surprise" and similar.
This stuff is out there in popular culture, I am surprised if it has passed you by.

I think any joking approach is treating their comments as a joke, and thereby either going along with it, or minimising it.

What would happen if you went into "deadly earnest" mode with them? I mean, put your most serious face on and sat down and said, no, seriously, you want to talk about this, what makes them think it's acceptable etc etc? (Come prepared with some useful facts and statistics too). If you could pull it off, it might be enough to make them feel uncomfortable enough to drop the jokes (at that moment at least... permanently might be too much to hope for right away) and maybe think a bit more about the shit coming out of their mouths. It would probably be hard for them to keep up the joking tone if someone's sitting there (deliberately) dragging the mood down.

I also agree with finding some new friends (can also confirm a lot of men are not like this!), but that that isn't the whole solution as it leaves this attitude unchallenged.

Lots of posters saying "make better friends". Well yes I think Lordlurkin would gain a lot from the company of nice, like minded people (don't we all) but I also think that he should be encouraged, if he has the stomach for it, to take these gits on too.

"but my god, I feel like you are accusing us all"

If you were less emotional about this then it might help. If you read what I wrote Sanjeev you'll see nether I nor anybody else said anything like that.

LordLurkin is talking about challenging misogyny amongst men in our society. It exists. It's a real phenomenon. So it's good he wants to do something about it. If you've got a wife and daughter, I'd have thought it might be a priority for you too.

The rape joke article is something I have never seen before. I know Carr has made jokes about sex with kids before, and Gervais has been in trouble recently for talking about mongs, so I assume these guys think they are pushing the boundaries of 'comedy'. I see Sarah Millican in there too.....hmmm. So perhaps this isn't just a male thing after all? Maybe women find this stuff funny too. It doesn't excuse it, but it seems to say that society as a whole thinks that sex crimes can be funny. There are plenty of priest/paedophile jokes about.

I suppose that is where I struggle with some of the stuff on this board. There can be a generic problem across society. Feminists seem to want to say 'This bit is about us - women. The rest? Yes, it's there, but we don't want to discuss it.' It seems to limit the argument for me. Anyway, this is about LL and his problem, so I will bow out and wish him luck.

Male sexual violence against women and the culture that surrounds and supports it is definitely a male thing. Where is Sarah Millican making jokes about raping people? How would it even be a threat if she did so? When men make jokes about women being raped, how do we know they aren't actually rapists?

Why are you in a section on feminism arguing this out as a matter of interest? You've got the rest of the internet and even the rest of Mumsnet where feminism is pretty much unaccepted. Yet one place where we draw attention to gendered violence, and misogynistic attitudes and you've got a problem with it.

Nyac - Sarah Millican is in Sardine Queen's article, 5 posts above yours. And her audience is hugely female.

The point is that Sarah Millican isn't a threat when she's making jokes about rape, whereas men who do are.

If I have a less than complete understanding of feminism and it's complexities, where better to learn about it than here? Are people only welcome if they don't question anything? I see some right old ding-dong arguments on here, and it's a good thing. Are you against open debate?

Your argument about Millican not being a potential rapist is flawed. The proportions are low, but women can be sex criminals too. You have no more idea than me.

No women can't be rapists, rape requires a penis. Seriously this is basic stuff. If you don't know it, have you thought of studying a bit more and declaring a little less?

You're not questioning anything, you're defending the sexist status quo. There's a big difference.