I need your help

[LordLurkin]

It might seem odd a man coming into a feminist section of mumsnet to ask for help, but I think that this might be the best place to ask.

I was moved to write here after stumbling across this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1413963-Sexual-violence-and-the-cult-of-masculinity

I am the son of a hyper masculine father who only learned to be a real (as in caring and not loutish I hope ) man after meeting my beloved wife 14 years ago. The reason I'm asking you for help is that although I have examined and improved my own views and behavior to a great extent (not perfect by a long shot ) I find the views of a lot of my male friends and associates pretty offensive and downright bloody wrong where women are concerned. There is also a view that seems so prevalent that a man who dosent run with those views is somehow less manly.

When I have spoken out in a group situation about some vile joke or stupid shitty comment I am often met with jeers of "pussywhipped" and similar comments.

What I am asking for is some ideas and help in challenging this stupidity and nastyness in a more effective and lasting way. As you can imagine this seems a daunting task but one I feel needs doing for the good of all, both male and female.

In short I need your input ladies.

FGS

"Show me evidence that there are lots of people telling rape jokes. I have NEVER HEARD ANYONE SPEAKING LIKE THIS" stamps foot

"Here you are"

"Oh... "

"But WOMEN laugh at those jokes so therefore they must be OK GOTCHA hahahha"

Sanjeev did you see this post earlier? "I know that I have had images shared with me by people at work (years ago) which I was really at but I didn't know what to say about it and am sorry to say that I went along with it. I was young and didn't really know what to think. " Maybe some of the women and men are laughing because of this?

I also find your language very teenaged and I feel that it does not add to the debate. Talking about people "bumming" people and so on. The term is anal rape. Or buggery maybe. "Bummed" is something that teens say and giggle.

'Come on girls, leave the nasty man alone.' I tried to drop the subject once, but someone else carried it on.

Sanjeev the 1 in 4 is in a person's LIFETIME that survey is in ONE YEAR.
It also only looks at REPORTED RAPES.

You are coming across as a bit thick TBH.

SQ, as I said a couple of posts back - it's the free pass handed out to women who DO choose to laugh that I am objecting to. It's men only who are being condemned. If a man sits next to his wife, and she laughs at Sarah Millican's rape joke, what is he supposed to think?

The OP wanted to stamp this out amongst male colleagues. I am proposing that women too need re-educating, and there is a huge shit-storm because I point this out.

'You are coming across as a bit thick TBH.' Lovely.

Well what do you expect if you try and use statistics to prove how very wrong all the nasty feminists are, and don't even bother to read them properly or think about what they mean.

What?

What?

Women don't stand around in pub saying they want to violently attack women who come through the door. Usually. Sometimes when men say things like this they laugh. It's the person saying it who deserves condemnation.

Most people on this thread will call anyone if they hear them making comments which are sexist, racist, homophobic, disablist, whatever, if they feel up to it.

It's not feminists who are saying this shit or defending it. Which is why the OP came here to ask how people deal with things.

SQ, you could try this -'Sanjeev, you have made a fundamental misunderstanding with the 1 in 4 stat. It refers to a person's lifetime, not an arbitrary 12 month period.'

I think you're getting a hard time because you come across as just wanting to win an argument, rather than wanting to engage in the subject matter and learn.

We're not here to win arguments. We're here to explore how the OP and other men, can resist the pressure to stay in the man-box. The issue of women colluding in patriarchy, is an interesting discussion but I'm not prepared to discuss it with someone who doesn't really want to explore it, he just wants to win an argument. That's just dull and I'm too busy.

I would imagine that the vast, vast majority of men who are raped are raped by another man. Not a woman but a man so I am not sure what you are arguing against Sanjeev.

Basil, point taken. It wasn't meant to turn out like that, and I am sorry if i did. I will REALLY bow out this time and hope that the OP sorts it out.

No worries Sanjeev, we all do it - get caught up in the momentum of an argument and get into a loop we didn't really mean to.

Do come back and discuss other stuff on other threads.

LL good for you (and hello KoPo too).

If more men were prepared to challenge violent hate language in the way that you are, we would be a lot further on when it came to human beings regarding and treating each other as true equals.

If you are truly interested in setting up a website or blog to build up a network of men who think as you do, I'm sure my DH would be more than happy to sign up - as would many of the partners of posters on this board, I suspect (hope!)

Sanjeev. Hatre to say it mate but your arguments are pretty damned flawed.

Lets take your reported crime figures and multiply by 9 as 90% of rapes are not reported so 14,624 times 9 becomes 131,616 and that is only looking at a 12 month window.

Times that by the amount of years a woman is alive and you have a very high number.

That also dosent take into account of childhood sexual abuse and sexual offences committed against children.

But back to the main subject of this thread.

I have never stated that it is a majority of men, it is however a significant enough minority that it is a big problem. It is a big enough minority that you can almost bank on there being a few shits in any reasonable sized group of men.

I do have some very good male friends who wouldnt dream of acting in that manner.

I am at a point where I believe that brushing it off is pretty much the same as legitimising it, and that is not what I want to be doing. The attitude of its ok to make nasty comments because someone is a woman is not good enough.

For whats its worth I dont think it is any better if a woman makes rape jokes as I legitimises the negative attitudes as there are those who will claim "look even women think its funny"

I asked DH when he came home for his break and he said that if he feels someone has overstepped the mark he'll say "Oh that's a bit much" in a serious way.

I told you he wouldn't be much help

DH says he would say "stop bring a cock". He wasn't much help either, sorry.

I find asking people to repeat themselves when they have said something offensive works quite well. These things are often said with a swagger and a bravado which are quite hard to pull off twice.

The probably won't repeat themselves and that makes them look like a dick.

If they do repeat, you say 'yes, that's what I thought you said, just wanted to check I'd got it right so that I can report you'.

And if the example that you gave happened in a work situation, about a real woman, you should have reported the person to HR. Imagine if the woman had overheard.

Also, some advice for you. Next time you come into a predominantly female space and a post graphic example of real life rapey/violent shit - would you be so good as to post a trigger warning.

You do it like this;

TRIGGER WARNING*

At the top of the post that contains the rapey violent shit. Thank you.

< likes BC's post >

this thread does highlight what often concerns me though which is if the vast majority of men are good human beings who recognise women as also being human beings why don't more stand up against this kind of thing? it isn't good enough.

is it still the boy with the biggest bravado rules and none of the non-alphas dare challenge him? that's infantile to say the least.

there is a definite need for a shift in male culture and it should be men who are saying that and working for it. i'm beyond tired of men supporting rapists explicity or implicitly by their silence. men jumping up and down in arms at the 'unfairness' of those being accused of rape being identified and bemoaning the minute percentage of allegations that are false instead of being up in arms at the number of real rapes and violent acts that take place against women every day.

i'm beginning to think that whilst not every man is a rapist the vast majority act like rape apologists and colluders. where are the men's groups standing up and fighting against the objectification, violence towards and discrimination against their daughters? are they all placing their place in a macho pecking in first place against their mothers, sisters, daughters and fellow human beings who happen to be female? is what some dickwad masculinity individual or culture thinks of you the main priority for men?

if that is not the reason then what is? every female had a father and every time he laughs at a rape joke or pretends he can't see discrimination, harassment, misogyny in all its forms he betrays her.

i would LOVE to see good men stand up and be counted. i'd love to see a men against violence to women group spring up and march and campaign and challenge the culture they live in.

deafening silence from men on all this though - the only one's who bother to be vocal on these topics tend to be anti-feminists and misogynists who women are left to challenge and fight whilst the 'good' men look the other way. much like ime what happens when you get harassed by a man in public and you're making eye contact with the other men and you know they see he is out of order and horrendous but despite that shared understanding they take the, 'i'm not getting involved' stance for fear of the guy who's doing it. it does get harder to respect people who stand by and don't have the balls/guts/whatever symbol you want to speak up for what's right.

you know feminism gets criticised a lot for being.... argumentative let's say - for arguing amongst ourselves over things. but actually that's ok. we're never going to look like a male political group or organisation because we don't do that alpha male shit - we speak up, we dare disagree. there is an element of male culture that is still with the apes whereby some subtle or overt competition takes place and decides who is the power holder and then the rest stand back and let them do as they please. we don't have that.

we just don't do this bizarre power deference, might (be it money, class, muscle etc) is right. we don't defer like men do. not with each other.

yep - just re-read my one before last post. i am sick of watching men try to disappear into the woodwork as their 'mate' abuses a female in one way or another and they know and can see and know they should say something, do something, stand by her but slink away with a guilty, cowardly look on their face instead. you can see they're disgusted but not a word. they look at her, hang their head in shame and retreat never to be able to properly look her in the eye again. it's pathetic.

SAF, are you talking abot feminists/this board, or women in particular? Because I've definitely noticed that many female groups have their alpha 'leader'.

that's your response eccle? not to engage with male hierarchies or why men don't speak up more about male violence etc but to just find something you think you can twist into well women do that too? do you understand the context we're talking in - as in that of women actually being killed and raped and abused by men on a large scale?

if you're saying that you know female groups in which a leader harasses and abuses e.g. ethnic minorities/disabled people/homsexuals in public and none of the women with them (despite clearly disagreeing with the behaviour) say anything at all? that's close to a comparable i guess if that's the case. i'm thinking that's not what you're saying though.