I need your help

[LordLurkin]

It might seem odd a man coming into a feminist section of mumsnet to ask for help, but I think that this might be the best place to ask.

I was moved to write here after stumbling across this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1413963-Sexual-violence-and-the-cult-of-masculinity

I am the son of a hyper masculine father who only learned to be a real (as in caring and not loutish I hope ) man after meeting my beloved wife 14 years ago. The reason I'm asking you for help is that although I have examined and improved my own views and behavior to a great extent (not perfect by a long shot ) I find the views of a lot of my male friends and associates pretty offensive and downright bloody wrong where women are concerned. There is also a view that seems so prevalent that a man who dosent run with those views is somehow less manly.

When I have spoken out in a group situation about some vile joke or stupid shitty comment I am often met with jeers of "pussywhipped" and similar comments.

What I am asking for is some ideas and help in challenging this stupidity and nastyness in a more effective and lasting way. As you can imagine this seems a daunting task but one I feel needs doing for the good of all, both male and female.

In short I need your input ladies.

"The point is that Sarah Millican isn't a threat when she's making jokes about rape, whereas men who do are.' Absolute twaddle.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15876968
www.charmandrigor.com/clips/details-raping.html
english.pravda.ru/hotspots/crimes/18-04-2005/8080-rapist-0/

Do you sit in the audience and realise Sarah M can rape you when she tells a rape joke Sanjeev?

Because Jimmy C can actually rape me. If he chose to. And the law would support him in that - 1 in 4 women get raped or sexually assaulted, 1 in 9 women get raped, 90% don't report, of those who do, 4% are false allegations and 96% are true, but only 6% get a guilty verdict.

Still think that laws are set up to deal with rapists?

You did ask for figures.

I don't understand why you are arguing that it sounds as though we think all men are rapists. It was the OP, who seemed to think it's difficult to get a group of men who don't make jokes about sexually assaulting women and who don't think that's acceptable. We're all telling him that it's perfectly possible to find friends like that, because as you yourself say, loads of men don't think this is acceptable or normal.

I've only read your first link because I couldn't get past it. Are you seriously arguing that prostituted women being accused of being witches, and being persecuted by the men who used them are proof of women raping? Extraordinary.

"Absolute twaddle"

I hope you realise you're coming across like a Men' Rights Activist from your posts on this thread. They like to dismiss or distort everything feminists say too.

I said I would bow out. You dragged me back in.

Jimmy C could bugger me. Or murder me. Or steal my wallet in the bar afterwards. Do I think about that too? Do you?

Under section 1(1) SOA 2003 a defendant, A, is guilty of rape if:

_ A intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of B (the complainant) with his penis;

_ B does not consent to the penetration; and,

_ A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

The women in the piece that you linked to may be guilty of sexual assault, but not rape. The offence is defined by the wording of the act. If you feel strongly that it is wrongly defined, I assume you are a member of a campaign group trying to get the wording changed? It is not an issue that directly affects the feminist movement.

Rape in Zimbabwe. Same as everywhere else - rapists getting away with it and the police and courts taking no interest:

www.trust.org/trustlaw/news/program-fights-against-stigma-for-zimbabwe-rape-victims/

You'd probably be able to fight him off better than I could Sanjeev.

And afterwards, you wouldn't have to consider whether you could be seen as having sent consent signals by smiling at him, catching his eye, or walking past him wearing a provocative pair of trousers.

Would you feel threatened by Sarah M was the question, not Jimmy C. Because therein lies the difference between her telling a rape joke, and him telling one - he can actually carry it out, she probably can't.

'It is not an issue that directly affects the feminist movement.'

And there we have it.

Basil. You know what they say about assumptions? There are women I know who would knock 7 bells out of Jimmy. But if he bummed me, why couldn't he say I lead him on, stroked his cheek, gave him a wink?

You can feel threatened by a man stood on stage, and you in a crowd of several thousand? Really?

Rape as defined in UK law - I was wrong about that. Apologies. It has a wider definition elsewhere to include all forced sexual acts, not just penetration by a penis.

John Stoltenberg talks alot in his books and essays about the difficulty of maintaining friendships with men who are sexist when you choose to be 'loyal to humanity rather than loyal to manhood.'

If you really feel you want to challenge these men rather than just extracting yourself from them, I think it's probably more beneficial to find out how other pro feminist men deal with stuff like this.

The context for a woman hearing misogynist comments from a man will be very different from that when a man hears the same thing. Also, doing some research and reading of your own, at least in the first instance, before asking women what you should do shows you aren't expecting women to come up with solutions for you.

Sanjeev, most feminists do take great pains to be clear that they don't mean 'all men' when they say something like 'men rape.' However, genuine pro feminist men really should take it as read that this is what they mean, spoken or not.

In a similiar way,as a visibly white person, I don't feel entitled to 'correct' a person of colour if they say something like, 'I'm depressed by the racist comments of white people.' I have to trust that the speaker doesn't mean all, but take on board that the discomfort I may be feeling comes from knowing that I DO enjoy racial privilege that they can't. So long as that happens, I remain part of the problem as well as the solution. Rather than feeling personally attacked by the comment, I use the unease I feel as a spur to remind myself not to collude with racists, and be more vigilant in identifying times when I might be doing that indirectly.

It's also important to accept that even if you personally haven't experienced alot of overtly misogynist or white supremacist attitudes or behaviour, it doesn't mean one has the right to challenge or even disbelieve the experience of others who have had more such experience. So for example, one may know no men personally that they think would feel entitled to force another person to have sex. That soesn't mean there aren't alot of men out there who do, and the men who just laugh or go along with this are effectively colluding with actions that harm women.

Do you feel threatened by Sarah M telling a rape joke, Sanjeev?

Do you think it's likely to add to a climate in which you have a 25% chance of being raped by your female colleague/ wife/ partner, friend? Do you think that it helps to normalise and minimise sexual violence perpetrated by a female against you?

Or are you going to simply deny that there is any cultural and social context in which these rape jokes are made?

"elsewhere"

Not here.

LordLurkin's first task could be to deal with Sanjeev.

No of course I don't feel threatened by a man on stage telling a rape joke.

I am talking about the cultural context in which he tells that joke

I am talking about the normalisation and minisation of male sexual violence towards women.

If you don't get that, then I guess we're not going to be able to have a rational discussion.

There are all the men in the audience laughing along with his rape joke to worry about.

And what Kritique said.

'"elsewhere" Not here.' Yup. Hence the apology. Thank you for accepting it so graciously. Although this assumes that we are all UK based.

Basil, no, I am not threatened by Sarah. But again I will ask - if you are sat in a crowd of 4,000 people at the Hammersmith Apollo listening to Jimmy tell his joke, are you threatened directly, intimately, personally by him? Yes or no? Not offended or sickened, but threatened, as in being in danger of imminent physical harm?

'There are all the men in the audience laughing along with his rape joke to worry about.' And what are the women doing?

Quite Nyac.

I don't just feel threatened for myself either.

I feel threatened for my daughter.

She's growing up in this climate of minimisation and denial of sexual violence. I feel really scared for her safety when she's older - her peer group of boys, are going to have seen violent hard-core porn and heard the rape jokes and laughed along with them and then they're going to be going out with her.

You too have a daughter Sanjeev. She has a 1 in 4 chance of being raped or sexually assaulted. Her chances will be reduced, if we as a society, decide that we're going to take the problem of sexual violence against women seriously and that we're not going to accept minimisation or denial or excuses for it.

Don't you want to do that for her?

sanjeev it appears you are an example of a man who comes onto a FWR thread which is specifically about men's behaviour towards women, started by a man, and still you want to talk about women's behaviour

why is that ?

Actually Sanjeev, yes I would feel slightly threatened.

Because I would know that statistically, one in 70 men in that audience, is a rapist.

Some of those men there, would have raped women.

And it may not be directly applicable to me - I'm with friends, I can go home with them, I'm safe - but it's an icky feeling to know that all those rapists and abusers of women, are sitting there in the audience, laughing along to a joke about women being abused.

Imagine a black man in the audience where a whole bunch of people are laughing at a joke about slaves being whipped. He's not in any danger of being whipped. He's with a group of mates, no-one's going to do anythign bad to them that night. Would you ask him what the problem is, if he felt uncomfortable about that situation? Or would you have enough respect for his humanity, to instantly see what the problem might be?

Yes the women laughing along are adding to the climate of normalisation of male violence.

But er, they're not going to rape me. and chances are, they've never raped anybody. And statistically, 1 in 4 of them will have been raped or sexually assaulted themselves and most will be in denial about it. Whereas some of those men in that audience, will have done, and none of them will have been convicted or even accused of it.

That's the context.

People who want to deny reality, always deny context. Go ahead and deny if you want Sanjeev. Nail your colours to the mast. Or if you're genuine, instead of trying to win an argument, think about what is being said to you. Think.

From the UK home office;
? Police recorded rapes of a female increased by five per cent to 14,624 offences and sexual assaults on a female increased by four per cent to 20,659 offences.
? Rapes of a male increased by 12 per cent to 1,310 offences and sexual assaults on a male increased by seven per cent to 2,412 offences

Against women then, 35,300 sexual crimes. Assuming that they are all different women, for this to be a '1 in 4 crime', then there have to be no more than 142,000 women in the UK. Have I got that right?

Because otherwise I don't see how you get from A to B.

www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb1011/hosb1011?view=Binary

Actually Anyfucker, the OP was the one offended. The 'target' of the comment does not appear to have been within earshot.

I am highlighting the fact that women make these jokes and comments, women laugh at these jokes and comments, and women are given a free pass because 'hey are no threat'. Bollocks. If women want to eradicate this kind of comment, stand up and walk out of Jimmy or Sarah's show. Vote with your feet. But it doesn't happen. And this is NEVER highlighted by people here. Why is that?

yes, women go along with it too

has anybody said they didn't ?

now I am no longer going to continue to engage with your derailment of this thread, and I suggest everyone else does the same