I need your help

[LordLurkin]

It might seem odd a man coming into a feminist section of mumsnet to ask for help, but I think that this might be the best place to ask.

I was moved to write here after stumbling across this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1413963-Sexual-violence-and-the-cult-of-masculinity

I am the son of a hyper masculine father who only learned to be a real (as in caring and not loutish I hope ) man after meeting my beloved wife 14 years ago. The reason I'm asking you for help is that although I have examined and improved my own views and behavior to a great extent (not perfect by a long shot ) I find the views of a lot of my male friends and associates pretty offensive and downright bloody wrong where women are concerned. There is also a view that seems so prevalent that a man who dosent run with those views is somehow less manly.

When I have spoken out in a group situation about some vile joke or stupid shitty comment I am often met with jeers of "pussywhipped" and similar comments.

What I am asking for is some ideas and help in challenging this stupidity and nastyness in a more effective and lasting way. As you can imagine this seems a daunting task but one I feel needs doing for the good of all, both male and female.

In short I need your input ladies.

Absolutely swallowedAfly, the most important men can do is to challenge other men's harmful behaviour, and not stay quiet. There is indeed a deafening silence from non-sexist men.

it is deafening and yet we stand by them and assume the best - bend over backwards to say oh we don't think 'all' men are sexist/rapists/actively upholding patriarchy etc because i know some 'nice' men who wouldn't do anything bad to women. why don't we have a higher standard? as in good guys who wouldn't stand by silent in the face of misogyny, sexist behaviour, sexual harassment, unwanted attention and affections etc etc etc? they should be speaking up for themselves rather than expecting us to constantly justify them with remembering to say some men... not all men ra ra ra. we're confirming them as good men when they should confirm it for themselves and prove themselves as such by standing up and saying i agree, i support you, i don't want rape, dv, sexism, inequality etc either and i will stand up and say so.

(am thinking it's because we give birth to them, we have sex with them, we marry them etc. other oppressed groups don't deal with such complexity of ties and emotion. they don't give birth to and nuture their oppressors so can easily detach and hold them accountable for their part in things whereas we need to believe them good and vindicate them because we love them)

Perhaps most men do know deep down that they gain from their privilege and are not prepared to put that at risk within the privileged group?

Funnily enough, I've just come back from a day spent horse-riding and eating with a group of women, one of whom I knew well, one a bit and 3 I'd never met. And the others had similar levels of knowledge of each other. Exactly what SaF says struck me at lunch - there was no alpha-jostling at all, despite the fact that there were riders of vastly varying ability and there was no existing group dynamic, so alpha was up for grabs, if desired. The conversation flowed from one "centre" person to another, depending on the topic. The riding together flowed similarly.

It was lovely.

Good points by SaF indeed.

Just to answer the OP, I asked DH how he dealt with sexist/misogynistic comments made in his hearing and he said he usually asks questions of the speaker:

"Why did you say that?"
"Do you think she would really feel that way?"
"What makes you think she would react that way?"
"Why do you think that's funny/appropriate?"

etc.

Might be one technique you could try.

I agree with the points made by SaF.

If the supposed good guys just stand by, then they are doing nothing to help, and they are perpetuating the brutalization of men. And that helps exactly nobody.

We hear often enough from men saying that it is only some men who behave badly and that they are sick of being associated with the rapey minority. They need to put their money where their mouth is a bit more.

yes, completely agree with saf

so, I think the answer to ll "get better friends" is not enough - he wants to change things more fundamentally than that, and more power to his elbow.

still, as someone else said, women are not the right people to ask for advice on this. when we try we get blanked, treated like shit, humiliated, etc... and a lot of stuff happens behind our backs we don't even know about. really, you need to hear from men who are good at this and who give a shit. presumably there are some? any who are lurking might speak up? or just look at sanjeev, and be the opposite? some people say a bad example is as useful as a good one (as long as you can tell the difference)

i don't even know about the benefiting from privilege bit. i think in the reality of what i've observed and seen in my life in real day to day interactions it is simply cowardice. a particular way of acting in terms of group dynamics. someone can act outrageously and yet they stand by him even though you can SEE they know exactly how shittily they're behaving and would be ashamed to be seen by their mum/sister/daughter at that moment standing by the idiot and saying nothing, even though the twitchy, know it's wrong ones outnumber the bully boy massively they are silent.

we need to get rid of this real men are strong over women shite ideology and replace it with real men stand up to men who are wrong. it's not a real man who beats a woman or doesn't take no crap from their 'bitch', it's a real man has the balls to stand up to another man in the name of what is right.

i don't know how anyone can remain respecting of and attracted to a man who stands by and is too scared to say anything in the face of another man (unarmed, not in a position of power, not anything other than a jumped up little twat) saying or doing misogynistic stuff. and any man who says he's never been witness to anything like that is a liar i'm afraid. i do not believe that my experiences over 3 countries, however many cities, various social classes, professions etc etc are magically anomalous to everyone else's reality. this stuff is prolific. no one alive has not witnessed it and been forced to challenge it or collude with it actively or in silence.

magnificent fire, saf (warms hands)
(not being sarcastic)

think it's the story of the 11 yo being gang raped (thread on this board) and the judge's comments that have lit it. that's about as complicit and... condoning as you can get. i'm sick of making excuses for men. if they want to be distinguished from rapists and abusers and misogynists they need to distinguish themselves from them. we shouldn't be fighting this shit alone, decent men should be alongside us.

It seems that alot of the time guys become more upset over statements such as "men shouldn't rape" than rapey misogynist statements. They will gladly argue with women that not all men are bad but will not challenge their badly behaving brethren. So show us! You're not a good man simply by not raping and not beating up women. Not doing anything can also be harmful.

magnificent ranting, saf

and where has OP gone ?

fucked off with the cookie crumbs ?

"if they want to be distinguished from rapists and abusers and misogynists they need to distinguish themselves from them."

Yes. This, SAF. And everything else you've said. Fantastic.

Men who aren't challenging misogynists and the rape culture are not women's friends. They too are part of the problem.

I reckon AF. Having a picnic whilst wasting women's time and energy (now where have i heard that before?).

Until he comes back and comments on what I said about trigger warnings, he will be filed in my head as of questionable motivation.

Which of course he will understand and acknowledge if he is what he claims. Until then I remain . At least this thread has thrown up some interesting stuff thanks to SaF pointing out what is staring us all plain in the face.

I think part of the problem is that it is such a vicious circle- misogynistic 'humour' is so ingrained in our culture that it has become normalised, and even the 'good guys' don't see it for what it is, because it is so accepted as being harmless fun.

(I say this not to excuse the 'good guys' from sporting it and picking other men up on it, but to try to examine the problem we are facing).

I once had a conversation with my DP- whom I can honestly say is 'one of the good guys' in terms of how he treats me and other women: I mentioned a thread on here about Wifework and asked him if he had ever had a conversation with his male friends about what housework etc they did. He hadn't. In his 32 years on this planet, it had never come up as a topic of conversation.

I asked him if he thought that any of his friends or colleagues had the attitude that Wifework was a woman's responsibility his answer was that he didn't know, but thought the answer was no. It was only when I pressed him to think whether he had heard any man joking about their wives or girlfriends cleaning/cooking etc, that he began to think of a few men who might fit the bill.

I don't know what can be done, though. It seems that the good guys don't have conversations about attitudes to women and Wifework, because it is just what they do, rather than a conscious decision. If men aren't having these sorts of conversations then nothing will change. It is all very well to say that men should bear the burden of changing other men, but it seems there has to be a catalyst to change the way they communicate to each other about these issues.

I can see the force in the argument that the feminist movement should be by women for women, but should we really be trying to recruit more male activists?

In relation to where I have been. Well I have been having a great weekend with my family and had guests over last night so little time to come on here and post :(

Yes with the experience of probably many men and other trolls coming on here to stir I can understand your suspicion as to my motives. It is a little dismaying to read though.

Beachcomber Sorry if I have offended you and yes I fully take on board what you have said about putting a trigger warning on a post like that. Im not fully up to date on the finer points of etequet on this board but will try and avoid too many errors.

swallowedAfly Im finding myself thinking along the same lines as yourself on most of the posts you have written on this thread. I do challenge, and challenge openly. But Im feeling that this is not having enough of an effect on the twatty element I meet. I asked here for some advice as this is at least somewhere where the idea of challenging other men will get a hearing and some sensible input.

To everyone who has posted here I have to say a big thanks for the positive ideas and the links to information that I have been given. I will be in and out of this thread so please dont feel I am hit and run posting. I have a very busy week coming up and may not be able to come online as much as I would like.

fair play to you for coming back, LL (and also posting in other areas in support of women...it doesn't go un-noticed)

I post what I see and think. A twat is a twat in my book and I dont tend to have a lot of sympathy for twats.

Ive actually been around a while on here mostly lurking and reading but with the odd post here and there. I tend to come looking for info and find a search of mumsnet cant turn up most things ive wanted.

I think the hivemind comments I have heard are in some ways deserved in a good way.

What are the hivemind comments?

Been pondering SaF' posts all day - crikey, isn't she good? well, I know she is but when she's on a roll, she's really on a roll.

Men could also make a difference by donating to organisations like Women's Aid and Rape Crisis or MWR If they can't put their mouth where they say their brains are at, then money would work too. Doing both would be preferable, of course.

It refers to a poster who a while back stated that her husband refers to mumsnet as the hivemind, as he is sure that there is at least one person on here who will know the answer to any question.

Hivemind as in collectively all knowing.

Bugger ... Im derailing my own thread :(

no, you are not derailing, LL

Oh I see, thanks for the clarification. I had something else entirely in mind.

Yes SAF totally gets to the crux of it. Yet IME the vast majority of men are only interested if they get some glory, and as soon as it becomes something that shifts them from centre stage they're not interested. I do know of 3 male supporters of feminism that don't do that.