not sure what to title this but it's to do with ejaculation

[YuleingFanjo]

and in particular a man ejaculating on a woman's face. Sorry - I feel awful writing it down.

I was talking to a friend last night, she is much nore sexually adventurous than I am and she was saying that she thought it was part of normal sexual behaviour, that most men found it a turn on and most people she knew thought it was normal.

I argued that it was something that came from porn, was not what I would call normal and there was no equivilant sexual 'thing' for a woman to do to a man. She said that women can 'gush' (I have never done this, maybe I am abnormal) or piss or poo (!) which I pointed out was a totally different thing. But is it?

I was trying to discuss it with her and point out that her sexual encounters are out of the norm, definitely aren't encounters within a loving relationship, and that ejaculating in someones's face is surely more about disrespect than anything else?

or am I wrong. I just find it really horrible and if anyone asked me to let them do so I would show them the door.

Soory - I hope I don't sound like some hairy trucker trying to get off on the whole thing, and I am not asking for personal experiences (I would prefer not to read them thanks) but more to discuss if I am right about the power/porn/disrespect thing...

yellowraincoat, I first talked about coersion at 14:01:09 in response to other posters.

There seems to be a lot of confusion between the personal and the political here IMO.

Politically I think this trend of men ejaculating on women's faces is misogynistic.

That does not mean that I make any sort of judgement about individual women who consent to or enjoy this particular act.

It means I think our sexuality is socialized and I don't think it is women who are dominating the socialization.

I think there is also a confusion of the moral and the political.

I am not pearl clutching (moral outrage), I am analysing from a feminist perspective (political observation).

Nothing happens in a vacuum - we live in a patriarchy and it pervades every area of our lives. It strikes me as very blinkered to exclude sexuality from that.

I think we should be allowed to discuss these things politically without having individuals take things personally and object to a political discussion on the basis of personal values - particularly as those personal values are neither being examined nor judged.

Feminism is about women as a group.

I gave up my job and financial independence to look after my kids and now I work from home. I do not think that these are radical feminist acts but they are my personal choices that I made. I do not object to feminist discussions about financial independence on the basis that they make me uncomfortable about my individual choices - because I know those discussions aren't about me in a personal way, they are about women as a group. They are political discussions not personal criticisms.

I think the suggestion that women politically analysing sexuality is somehow 'pearl clutching' or done in disgust is extraordinarily navel gazing actually. Sorry to be so blunt.

Because people aren't politically analysing. They're throwing words like normal and degrading around.

I don't think it is normal - as in I don't think it is the norm in sexual relationships. Perhaps I am wrong about that.

I personally would find it degrading.

But how on earth can you possibly say what is the norm in a sexual relationship? And even if you could, what difference would that make? If my boyfriend and I enjoy flinging sweetcorn at each other for pleasure, is it wrong because it's not "normal"? Is something only ok if everyone else is doing it?

Well I'm being political about it.

I'm saying an act that has its roots in porn/came from the porn directors' brainstorming on how to keep making money from filmed prostitution, is misogynistic. Hell the porn producers are perfectly clear about what the money shot is! They make no pretence that is is any other than penis worshipping and intended as an act of domination and disrespect.

I make no judgement on individuals who have added this practice to their private sex lives by saying that.

I think our obsession with PIV is misogynistic but I practice it in a fairly typical way. I don't beat myself up about that, or judge myself, or think it makes me a bad feminist. I just think it makes me a product of my society.

Equally I won't let that fact that I practice something, stop me from politically analysing it - that way lies handmaidenship and the demise of feminism (which is just what patriarchy wants).

TBE - I don't think you can get STDs in your eye from someone who you know not to have an STD. Safer Sex in ONS is a connected issue, and worth discussing, but OP implied that this practice would never be done inside a loving relationship. Which is, going by the postings of those who indulge in it, an incorrect assumption.

If the OP had asked about how is this safe when you have sex with someone of unknown serostatus that would have been a reasonable question, and not come across as judgemental.

WWno not at all.
the question of the thread has 2 possible answers - it IS disrespectful.
-It is NOT disrespectful. Just exploring the second option. It is after all a discussion, and with all the personal/political blurring I was merely trying to sound detached.

Also OP has repeatedly clarified her question, and admitted she could have worded it differently. To continously dwell on how judgey she is to distract from the question she asked,

Sinical - see, I think it can be disrespectful. Or not. Depending on the circumstances.

It's just not True/False. Life and humans are more complicated than that.

well that is true.

I think what I was catching the tail of, is when it's not. when it's something the woman actively enjoys, rather than just lets him do, or worse, feels she has to do.

Beachcomber - I absolutely agree with all that you have said. well put and reasonable.

But it works both ways.

Why are some people saying 'I hate semen' and 'How can you possibly get pleasure from sitting on a man's face?' in a fit of prudish, moral outrage? It makes me feel uncomfortable.

I am not allowed to say 'Yes, this act has been glorified as part of a warped, male dominated and extremely damaging porn industry' BUT I like all sorts of sex. I can do feminist analysis and kinky sex.

Some feminists are intent on turning us into Mary fucking Whitehouse.

Lets critique the patriarchy, fuck yeah. But can we allow female sexuality a place, please?

And just to say

Unless you are a rad fem who is either a lesbian or doesnt do penetrative sex, you could say that ALL sex, even if it is between consenting adults, is degrading to women. But its NOT. That is a gross misrepresentation of what sex can be.

I think that a honest sexual relationship is important, as you get older you should tell your partner what you like, where you like it and how hard, I find this a turn on.

To the OP, I am with you on this one. This is not a sexual practice which was ever even discussed among my friends and I in my sexual heyday and I was not a nun. So it seems to me that if it is now arising regularly in 'general sex', for want of a better phrase, as your friend believes, then it seems to me that the activity's apparently prevalent depiction in internet porn is a very likely reason.

There are two question entangled here though: is this 'normal'? And is this degrading? With regard to normal, I think that what men increasingly see in porn becomes 'normalised' to them, and they will gain confidence in asking more and more women 'in real life' to do these things. And young women exposed to these requests will think that this is 'normal'. Which of course it will be if they all start doing it. And then they will all as a group feel increasing pressure to let men do this to them, whether they really like it or not, or whether they feel uneasy about it.

This is a different question, of course to, 'is it degrading'? I believe (but can't prove) that this image of a man coming on a woman's face is so popular in porn because MEN consider it a degrading thing to do to a woman, and a considerable number of them are turned on by that. This is not about physical matters such as 'the semen has to go somewhere, why does it matter where?', it is very symbolic. I think coming on a woman's face, specifically, is a symbolic act of degradation. Since I can't prove it, however, I can only suggest, OP, that you go and find a men's forum which discusses such things and see what MEN say about these images. I suspect there lies the answer.

To be fair, I think Vivian has an aversion to bodily fluids by what she says, I don't think she has issues about semen particularly - people can't always help what creeps them out, my DD has a massive aversion to velvet for example.

There are lots of women who won't have semen in their mouth, I understand that's fairly common, strange as I find their revulsion , I can understand if they don't like the taste or texture.
I don't think you can really compare female ejaculation tbh, I doubt that many women specifically plan to ejaculate over a man's face, (unless he requests it) women aren't in control over it, it tends to just happen whereas a man is generally in control and planning to do it IYSWIM. Unless the man is being dominated in some way, he's actually controlling things , as he is when he's coming on a woman's face, the woman is the receiver in both scenarios - that's the difference for me.

"But how on earth can you possibly say what is the norm in a sexual relationship? And even if you could, what difference would that make? If my boyfriend and I enjoy flinging sweetcorn at each other for pleasure, is it wrong because it's not "normal"? Is something only ok if everyone else is doing it?"

sorry my understanding of norm and normal in the context i am using it may be different?
maybe I am using the wrong language. It's not something I thought was being done by the vast majority of people.

Pengwin - Due to the fact that very many men speak of leaving women looking like "a plasterers radio" on male dominated fora, I don't think there's any doubt that they view it as degrading.

"but OP implied that this practice would never be done inside a loving relationship"

what I was trying to get at RE my friend was that the kind of sex she has is not in a loving relationship and perhaps the way the people she has sex with treat her is not what one might expect within a loving relationship, I guess I am judging those people. i suppose I am suggesting that those people are seeking a different kind of sexual thrill and one which may not be safe or loving.
Of course, she and they have every right to seek that kind of sexual experience.

Just like the "Is PIV powerful?" thread, this one is almost all about the women. In some cases of feminist analysis, the what about the men question is valid. Do men think that j izzing on the face is degrading?

And after frequenting various male dominated forums and partaking in a fair amount of eavesdropping, I think lots of them do. Or at least, they give that impression in their "banter". And that's not just words, no matter how jokey it is. I don't even mean that they truly feel it, necessarily, but the casual acceptance of that attitude is a is problem.

"I don't think you can really compare female ejaculation tbh, I doubt that many women specifically plan to ejaculate over a man's face, (unless he requests it) women aren't in control over it,"

I can control my orgasms as any man could, i know my body enough to know what works for me. Most women are not comfy with having a face near to their vagina's because they have been conditioned to think they they are not clean or that is not a normal part of sex.

I don't think any consented sexual act should be regarded as "not normal".

I think that the popularity of some acts has happened because of porn, so i can understand discussing those acts from a political POV but on a personal level whether or not the act is disrespectful can only be decided by those taking part.

Coming on your partners face (whether male or female) is "bad" and some people like to think of their sexual acts as being "bad" and pushing boundaries.

What I meant by "not in control" was that the man is providing the stimulation for the woman to ejaculate, ( ejaculation for me personally, does not equal orgasm, it's a completely different experience) the woman probably isn't masturbating over the man's face in the same way a man would be doing.

I don't know any women who aren't comfortable receiving oral sex from their partner I would think any woman saying that had serious issues tbh.

I too can control my ejaculation. We both enjoy it when it's on his face. He doesn't feel degraded by it.

malifence - "the woman probably isn't masturbating over the man's face in the same way a man would be doing."

How on earth do you know? Is there a study on female on male face squirters and which techniques are used to stimulate ejaculation?

It's a huge assumption to make.