it's not Narnia, it's the Feminist Section!

[JaneMare]

i thought i'd start a thread for those of us who don't normally post in here, so we can chat without derailing (any further ) the thread about strip clubs.

shall we stay then?

I'm sorry, I completely blurred the distinction between 'conditioned' and 'socialized' - I'm feeling very sure of the difference but I totally agree that all of this ideology makes sense in the 'come the revolution' context of disagreeing with the whole system, not just tweaking at little imbalances.

I think people often get put off because they think feminists are claiming a difference between 'all the other women who are affected by the patriarchy' and 'us clever feminists who aren't'.
Whereas in fact we're absolutely not; we all know we're part of the system too and escaping from conditioning is not as simple as reading a couple of feminist books.

I think that is very true Tunip. I don't think feminists think they are enlightened or cleverer or anything else.

If anything, lots of the feminists I know almost wish they hadn't started to see it. Lots of them talk about the impossibility of unseeing, but how they would sometimes like to be able to.

Personally I think being a feminist is really really hard. It is hard because you have to face up to the hatred and violence against women as a group. You have to face up to your low status, you have to face up to your oppression and even worse, you have to face up to the fact that you are complicit in all of that.

We are all complicit because it is impossible to escape the all pervading nature of patriarchy (even separatists can't manage it).

However there is a difference between being complicit and collaborating.

Blackcurrants, your goblin idea is not nonsense it is very illustrative - don't put yourself down woman! You have an excellent way with words and a way of taking abstract things and making them into little light-bulbs.

I very much agree with what you say about white supremacy. It takes a very honest individual to say 'ok I like to think that I'm not racist but I'm white so it seems virtually impossible that I have not been socialized to be racist to some degree and anyway I benefit from white privilege which is racism.'

Only with the honesty and humility to accept the above can one even begin to think about properly analysing white supremacy and subsequent black oppression (as a member fo the white privileged group I mean). And even then you will still probably act like a boorish buckethead half the time no matter how well meaning you might be.

I think the same goes for sexism and male supremacy/patriarchy.

I also think that this is a very very difficult thing for white males to do because they benefit from double privilege, and I suspect that privilege is synergistic. The more you have of it, the more oblivious you are to it. The more oblivious you are to unearned privilege, the harder it is for you see how it advantages you by disadvantaging others (and the less likely you are to relinquish it).

See, I still struggle to see the alternative which is being proposed. Society is heteronormative, so I think yes, it's probably true that a lot of things women do to attract a mate, are based in what would help attracting a male mate. But then men do things which are supposedly attracting women.

Homosexual people, do try to attract same sex partners, no matter whether they are male or female. Whether that's by shaving legs, or being able to quote large chunks of Dworkin by memory depends on one's own taste, and what kind of mate I would like to attract. Yep, just going for physical bits is superficial (or just going for finances, prowess, or any other single issue), but it's ingrained in humans to want to attract mates - that's not a patriarchal construct, but just biology. Humans are social animals.

So, I think, that if someone starts shaving their legs or pubes, even if they actually like or don't care about hairy legs or pubes, because they feel obliged to and think it is expected of them, is not a good thing. However if they shave their legs and pubes because they really like it (and e.g. also really like their partner to do the same), then there's nothing wrong with it. It's the same thing as, say, pretending to like football in order to land a bloke as opposed to liking football and therefore preferring a bloke who likes it too.

Well I don't disagree with you - I just think it is an odd coincidence that it is women who do most of the shaving of legs, pubic regions, etc.

And it is something new. It is not something we used to do.

Shaving the female pubic area comes direct from porn anyway.

Are we to think that the vast majority of economic and political power is held by men because women just don't want these things?

Are we to think that the feminisation of poverty is because women choose to be poor?

Things like shaving our legs are not that big a deal. Things like who gets to rule the world and hog the material comfort are however. And they are part and parcel of the same thing.

"Things like shaving our legs are not that big a deal. Things like who gets to rule the world and hog the material comfort are however. And they are part and parcel of the same thing."

They are and they aren't. Of course anyone should ask themselves why they shave their legs (or do other things) - if it's because they feel they have to rather because they want to, then it's maybe time to stop. But if the answer is "because I really want to", then that's cool and it doesn't matter much whether it's through patriarchal conditioning.

Thing is, I guess my background of having spent a large part of my teens and early twens in a subculture where both men and women wear make up, stockings and suspenders, sparkly things, jewellery, provocative clothes and hairdos which take absolutely ages to do up, which was all not overly accepted by society (and I guess in part we did it because of that, but also just because we liked the look) probably informs a lot of my outlook on especially questions of dresscode/shaving/makeup whatevs.

Most of the time I now wear little make up because i can't be arsed, but I still think, if it's what somebody likes doing, all the power to them. Ditto short skirts (can't really get away with the majority of my outfits from back then anymore because I've got 3 st to lose

Personally, I think it's more important to tackle coercion where it is felt, and teach girls and boys alike that they are free to like what they want, and to say "no" to things that they don't want. Pressure to conform to norms in sexuality affects men and women alike. By arguing with the overarching patriarchy concept, it comes across that it's a thing that only men do to only women, not humans to humans.

I know you don't want to do a disclaimer all the time, and I don't want this to come across as yeahbuttery, I guess I'm very much against a lot of the same things you are, but my idea of how it is best attacked is different.

'But if the answer is "because I really want to", then that's cool and it doesn't matter much whether it's through patriarchal conditioning.'

Why not?

I think it matters hugely. It's expensive, for starters.

'Because I want to' is only the start of the analysis, surely, rather than the end.

Not that every shaver, for example, should have to analyse their reasons, but not to get personally defensive when other people want to analyse the factors on a societal level.

In 1988 lots and lots of young women just wanted a big bubble head of hair. A coincidence? Fashions come from somewhere - even Antipodean soaps. It's illuminating to examine the factors that feed fashion, and how and why and where they manifest.

"I think it matters hugely. It's expensive, for starters."

Good guitars are expensive - is that an argument against taking up guitar playing as a hobby? If I really want to?

If you rather spend your money on other things and don't really want to, of course you shouldn't feel obliged.

SinicalSanta I've nothing against analysis of what drives fashion. I'm just arguing that the analysis shouldn't lead to coercing people into giving up things they really want to do, because they like them. That would be doing the same as what you're condemning in the first place.

widow, do you think you're conditioned to play guitar because of your gender? Really?

If so, then yes, it matters that they're expensive.

Beauty practices are a big industry and most of the cost is on women. It's the imbalance between men and women that is concerning, not the individual action.

Absolutely not.
But analysis does not inherently lead to coercion. It's often stated 'feminists want to stop everyone wearing lipstick' - yet I've never seen feminists try to do that, here or elsewhere. That conflation is really what 'gives feminism a bad name' but it's not the feminists who are doing it!
Of course, people may come across feminist analysis of lipstick wearing, it may chime, they may no longer want to do it. Fair enough, sez I.

I refer you back to my posting of 15:29 to illustrate the background to my opinions on make up.

If you don't want to wear make up, all the power to you! Make-Up wearing should not be compulsory, ever. But if you want to wear make up, there's nothing wrong with that, and I don't give a fuck whether it's socialising which made you like make up or not.

The key is spend your money on what you want.

WW
"The key is spend your money on what you want."

I think the key is to think about what you want and why you want it, and to know the forces that are designed to manipulate you, and to try to be as free of them as you can possibly be, preferably while helping others to liberate themselves from oppressive expectations and restrictions based on gender.

But you'll never get that into a chant-able slogan, alas!

WHAT DO WE WANT????

to know the forces that are designed to manipulate us, and to try to be as free of them as we can possibly be, preferably while helping others to liberate themselves from oppressive expectations and restrictions based on gender!!!!

WHEN DO WE WANT IT??

Now!!!

See what you mean, blackcurrants

THREE WORD CHANT!
THREE WORD CHANT!

"I think the key is to think about what you want and why you want it, and to know the forces that are designed to manipulate you, and to try to be as free of them as you can possibly be, preferably while helping others to liberate themselves from oppressive expectations and restrictions based on gender."

Can I still want them though, even if I'm aware of the cynical marketing ploys which make want things?

sinical - I don't know what you mean, I find it positively catchy!

One for MWR I think.

WW - I think most people still want them!

WW well yes of course - nobody is stopping you. Unless yourself, of course, now that you have the information/another perspective.

Blackcurrants how about
BLACK CURR ANTS!
BLACK CURR ANTS!

(feeling a bit sycophantic at the mo but what harm )

It's just easier isn't it to wear the damn lipstick or whatever, rather than launch a Year Zero type assault on your psyche and purge it of all associations and expectations. Some things aren't worth the battle, and everyone can draw that line for themselves.

I bask in your sycophancy! Does any of it translate into you doing my dishes? [oppurtunist emoticon]

I think I find more and more connections between my feminism and my parenting, as I get more old and dogged and further into parenting. "Pick your battles" fits here as in most things.
There are some things I won't let slide, some lines I won't cross, some things up with which I shall not put. And there's some stuff that I think, oh buggerit, it's shallow/probably not hastening the revolution, but I am going to do it anyway, I don't think it's hurting anybody.

It doesn't hasten the revolution, but it probably doesn't kill people. I'm not perfect. I do my very best, but my energy is limited and the patriarchy is everywhere. I think most of us work out what's really important and where we're going to focus our energies, and work from there.

FWIW, I read a lot of threads on this board that start with "Can I still do X and be a feminist?" and I very rarely read a FWR regular poster who responds with "No! your feminist card is revoked! Come the revolution you will NOT be allowed any of the cake!" - there's usually discussion, but there are rarely fatwahs.

Lies.

Blackcurrants has no feminist card. If she did she would know we shun cake as a badge of women's domestic servitude.

No cake here, never was ...

Did anyone here say cake?

There will be jaffacakes for all come the revolution, my friend!
(unless I get there first, in which case, there will be jaffacakes for ME.)