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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

it's not Narnia, it's the Feminist Section!

205 replies

JaneMare · 13/02/2012 17:21

i thought i'd start a thread for those of us who don't normally post in here, so we can chat without derailing (any further Angry) the thread about strip clubs.

shall we stay then? Wink

OP posts:
WidowWadman · 15/02/2012 08:51

Stars - no problem with pointing out oppression and trying to overturn it, but I think where it's going too far is, when there is oppression is detected also in places where there is none.

To take the PIV example - I don't doubt for a second that there's plenty of girls and women who actually don't enjoy it much, and more or less only do it because it's expected of them/they feel pressurised into it. That's a form of oppression and very very wrong indeed, and it'd be bonkers to argue otherwise. And of course people should be empowered to only consent to things they actively enjoy. I find it very important that people are taught that PIV is not the be all and end all, that it's ok to set boundaries, that there's plenty of fun to be had without it, and that if they want to do it, how to do it safely.

However arguing following on from this, that PIV is inherently problematic, even if it is between consenting partners who both enjoy it equally, is taking it too far.

As with the het relationships - nobody chooses to be hetero, gay, bi, or whatever. So to argue that a sexual preference is inherently problematic doesn't make sense to me. I don't know what you mean about "under current norms" - if there's a relationship where one partner is calling the shots and the other is in a subservient role, I don't think that's a healthy thing. And I get very annoyed by people insisting on the classical role model as the only way.

Discuss where any relationships go wrong/are unhealthy. But I wouldn't even go so far to assume that oppression/DV only apply to relationships where there are men involved.

Bras - I've no idea why men with moobs don't wear bras, but obese people are often subject to ridicule, no matter whether they're male or female. So to suggest that braless men with moobs are accepted in society where a braless woman isn't , I'm not quite sure that follows. There are dresscodes in society - and I don't find the bra any more oppressive in that context than, e.g. a man being expected to wear a tie when dressing smart. Bras have multiple purposes - I personally find it painful when I'm not wearing one, and I like wearing pretty ones, because it makes me feel attractive - and there's nothing wrong with wanting to feel attractive. If you find a bra uncomfortable, then it probably doesn't fit properly.

Shoes - my argument is similar to bras there really. Yeah, "killer heels" and painful feet, I kind of see your point. Wearing heels in general, less so. (Especially because flats give me painful feet and legs)

I've read it several times here that people state that once they started looking for it they started seeing sexism/misogyny/oppression everywhere. And I don't doubt that - however, that doesn't neccessarily mean that it really is everywhere, but sometimes simply it is confirmation bias. I fall into that trap myself often enough.

There's plenty of sexism and misogyny around which needs to be addressed and challenged. I don't think it helps to go looking out for more - and, I think that, as I said before, there's a risk of losing those who happily challenge sexism and misogyny where it occurs, when coming up with those theories.

TunipTheVegemal · 15/02/2012 09:14

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Panfriedstardust · 15/02/2012 09:36

Tunip - the request for 'evidence' isn't absurd in itself - but it would be simply impractical to recover any of the posts/views to which I refer. Accept, or don't accept those views as being expressed here over time. Quite why I woud wish to make any of them up is a bemusement.

StewieGriffinsMom · 15/02/2012 09:46

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Panfriedstardust · 15/02/2012 09:54

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SensitivityChip · 15/02/2012 09:58

I was reading radfem hub the other night after seeing something linked on this site and was quite surprised at the amount of disparaging remarks about "fun-fems" which I assume means more moderate /liberal feminists who are described incapable of deep thought, "unwilling to give up piv" and playing into men's hands, among other things. I didn't consider there was such a divide tbh. Will try and link if I can find the article again.

PattiMayor · 15/02/2012 09:58

People seem to be confusing discussion with edicts in this thread rather a lot.

flippinada · 15/02/2012 10:02

Realise I'm coming in late to this but anyhow, I've been around for donkeys years in MN terms (one name change) and I think the feminism section is great, in fact I love it - even though I lurk more than I post.

Its fantastic we have this space.

Lots of people seem to have a problem with it. Tant pis, as the French would say :).

SardineQueen · 15/02/2012 10:05

I have only seen one of the things on pan's list on here, and I have been here forever.

It is true that occasionally quite surprising ideas are put forward. And the people discuss them. In the case of some of the more leftfield posts even many regs will come along and say WTF.

I don't understand why someone saying something once on this topic, and being disagreed with, renders feminism as a movement extreme? All the feminists in the world are not on MN, this is an open forum and people can post what they like, and then things are discussed.

Thinking about it maybe it's a bit like. When I go on a political thread and one of the more rabid right wingers are there and I think "ha there, they're all horrible evil people, that proves it, some of them pretend they aren't but they are underneath". I think this because I fundamentally disagree with right wing politics and so reading the more hardline posts reinforces my own underlying beliefs. I can't be open-minded about it.

I guess it's the same with feminism. The only reason someone would read one post (out of thousands) and think HA I KNEW IT is one who doesn't actually have feminist beliefs in the first place.

SardineQueen · 15/02/2012 10:06

That took me ages to write, loads of posts in the meantime.

TunipTheVegemal · 15/02/2012 10:07

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SensitivityChip · 15/02/2012 10:08

This sort of thing, including the comments:

radicalhub.com/2012/01/31/fun-with-numbers-the-sex-positive-equation/

It confused me a bit as it seems that the causes different kinds of feminists are working towards contradict each other completely rather than being on different ends of the same spectrum and as a result there seems to be a definite lack of support between the two.

WidowWadman · 15/02/2012 10:10

"I don't understand why someone saying something once on this topic, and being disagreed with, renders feminism as a movement extreme? All the feminists in the world are not on MN, this is an open forum and people can post what they like, and then things are discussed."

Nobody has said that individual extreme opinions render the whole movement extreme. But that, if first contact with a movement is reading individual extreme opinions it can put off people from wanting to engage with it in the first place.That's two very different things. Is that such an outrageous thing to say?

SardineQueen · 15/02/2012 10:14

But there are hardly any "extreme" (I would prefer unusual) opinions posted on here. And when they are there are plenty of people saying "OMG that's nuts" and lots of other people saying hmm that's a new one on me and having a discussion about it.

If people on MN are managing to come in here and somehow only manage to see only an unusual opinion, and not manage to read any of the other posts around that opinion on the thread, or any of the other threads, well I'd think that person was working quite hard to winkle out these posts and had some kind of screen filter or blinkers on. A la me on threads with lots of tories. I'm not ashamed to admit it, I have some insight into what topics do that to me.

TunipTheVegemal · 15/02/2012 10:15

all big political movements have different wings though SensitivityChip. Look at the splits within the Labour or Tory party, divisions within the anti-apartheid movement....
It would be more surprising if there weren't such disagreements. Only the fact that so much of the discussion around feminism is happening on the internet means it is all made visible to people outside the movement and the splits look hugely significant.
Go to a march, though, say a Reclaim the Night, or a massive one like MWR, and you will see feminists of all persuasions, radical and liberal, DM-wearing and high-heel wearing, atheist, Christian and Muslim, all races and social classes, putting aside any differences and marching together.

WidowWadman · 15/02/2012 10:15

Sensitivity chips link is a perfect example of what I would think is an extreme viewpoint, which is to my taste too condescending and has more potential to deter people from feminism than attracting them.

But after all I'm just a sex-positive fun feminist, I guess and probably lack the right depth of thought. :)

SensitivityChip · 15/02/2012 10:22

That's reassuring Tunip, I'm new to this and was a bit disappointed by what I read. I had always felt previously that we were all more or less on the same side but after reading that I felt that views like mine were seen as invalid and even harmful to the feminist cause which I don't think they are at all. Was a bit alienating tbh.

TunipTheVegemal · 15/02/2012 10:28

SensitivityChip - come to MWR! Smile link
It's incredible.
It gets you all fired up and inspired and then you go away and do lots of activism.

Internet debates aren't really what it's all about, though they can help you clarify your thinking.

Panfriedstardust · 15/02/2012 10:51

Tunip - fwiw I am not 'accusing' anybody of anything. Posters can hold whatever views they like and so long as no-one gets harmed by them I don't give a rat's arse. I was merely pointing out that Stars was inaccurate in her overview of the FS.
( blimey, and we thought the male ego was a fragile creature...Grin).

TunipTheVegemal · 15/02/2012 10:55

don't be so disingenuous Pan.

Saying someone has said something which that person would not consider a reasonable thing to have said counts as accusing in my book.

Hullygully · 15/02/2012 11:03

Is this Pan the same one as the old Pan?

Because if it is, I just want to say TOLD YOU SO

Panfriedstardust · 15/02/2012 11:08

okay. can see this disolving into a game of internet table-tennis, so I'll leave it here.

BasilRathbone · 15/02/2012 11:14

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TBE · 15/02/2012 11:17

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JerichoStarQuilt · 15/02/2012 11:19

I liked Blackcurrents post about feminism and equalism - way too late to say it, but I do.

Equalism doesn't make anyone ask questions - everyone knows they want to be equal. Feminism makes people sit up and notice women aren't already equal.

As to extremes - why does it matter? Seriously, why on earth do you care if you honestly believe a view being put forward is extreme? Either you really believe it's extreme, in which case by definition, few will share it, or you believe it's actually getting a lot of agreement and that, for some reason, worries you.