it's not Narnia, it's the Feminist Section!

[JaneMare]

i thought i'd start a thread for those of us who don't normally post in here, so we can chat without derailing (any further ) the thread about strip clubs.

shall we stay then?

Stars - you don't need to throw bombs to be an extremist. Extremist just refers to being at the extreme end of a spectrum as opposed to moderate/middle of the road.

I agree that evil man hating hairy lesbians are straw feminists, and the majority of people who identify as feminists probably aren't men hating hairy lesbians (and no, I've no problem with hirsuteness nor homosexuality at all) - however, I've read feminists saying without irony that if you want to be a feminist you can't be in a heterosexual relationship, that vaginal intercourse is in itself problematic even if consensual, that wearing bras, make up, pretty shoes is wrong.

These are extremist ideas, which have been stated by people identifying as feminists. Of course they're being used to ridicule the movement. But it's disingenuous to claim that they don't exist.

Sadly a lot of people think of the extremist ideas first when they hear the word "feminism", and that's what puts them off (as I used to be put off by it).

I wonder about those men who supposedly believe in equality but wouldn't read the women's section in G2. That doesn't sound to me like being put off by the label feminism, it sounds like being a little bit sexist, even if they'd never admit it, and assuming that something that is sold as 'women's interests' can't possibly have anything that will be of interest to them.
People I know who are genuinely for equality, IME, tend to be quite interested in other people's struggles even if they don't have anything to do with them.

Stars - throw as many biscuits at me as you like. I'm still fairly new to this part of MN, I have not read tons of feminist literature yet, and my knowledge of "radical feminism" is only vague so far.

Also, I do find your aggressiveness rather offputting.

Do I have to do a thread trawl now, to throw up a few postings which I would consider extreme to make you happy? I can do that. But I have an ilk you'll just throw more biscuits at me anyway. Especially as you get impatient when it takes me more than 20 minutes to reply. After ten. I might as well have fucked off to bed already for all you know.

Tunip - the argument is that it shouldn't be "women's interests" but is of interest to everyone. I think they're in need to pull that particular stick out of their backside, too, tbh, but can follow their argument.

If an article about any women's issues is published in the main section without the label "women's issue" it wouldn't surprise me if it reached a wider audience.

But vaginal intercourse can be problematic. Because it's gender normative. Most women do not orgasm solely through penetration. It's excludes lesbian relationships. It alienates women who cannot orgasm through intercourse.

As for bras. I know men with larger breasts than me. They don't have to be restrained by bras. So why the hell should I? I choose to wear one, but that's because I'm used to them. But why should anyone be forced to wear one because that's what the patriarchy dictates?

I've yet to meet a feminist, in any branch of the word, tell women off for wearing pretty shoes. Or tell women they can't wear make up. I've been encouraged to think about why I wear it. I still identify as a radical feminist.

And please stop discrediting radical feminist views as "extremist".

Widow I don't see the relevance of that to your point about the label feminism though. Are you saying we shouldn't call anything feminism because then men will assume it has nothing to do with them? Because if so, I think Blackcurrants' post of 13.03 says it more eloquently than I ever could.

WidowWadman, I saw you posting in here long before I started... I started, under a different guise in 2011.

And I got impatient because you responded to the post after mine, repeating your "extreme feminists" claptrap, before replying to me.

stars my boobs hurt if I don't wear a bra!

I just want political, social and economic equality for women, all women everywhere.

That's all. Not too much to ask is it? No reason to be slagged off or called an extremist. Not hysterical or unreasonable, just pretty simple and straightforward, why does it cause such a furore and so much anger. Because it disrupts the status quo.

stars only the boob bit of my post was directed at you, not the rest.

Northeast, I gathered.

My point was, it's only the patriarchy that dictates we have to wear a bra. As far as I'm concerned, women can wear bras for any reasons whatsoever. Mine aren't affected by the presence or lack of a bra... Just feels more streamlined for me.

Might ask OH to wear a bra for a week or so...

You know, sometimes I think that feminists might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb and just go full on for advocating death for rapists and serial domestic violencers. The press couldn't get much worse and then at least some of them would not be in a position to cause harm to women again.

FFS, taking the odd rhetorical flight of fancy as some extremist agenda is Icke territory. Feminism is often about theory as much as practice and I can guarantee that there is no underground movement advocating terrorism against men, although given the multitude of scenarios on this thread I am not above advocating rising above conditioning and advocating a them or us situation.

Extreme views in relation to feminism are only seen as such because there has been such a backlash. I watched the Depeche Mode documentary on breaking America the other night and was taken aback (as were the others that were watching with me) by the gender ambiguity that surrounded them. We are much more polarised now and it is a Bad Thing. Feminists (in the main) want to see the end of that polarisation. It's not being "as good as men", it's being equal to them. As women. As human beings. Default feminism only gets you so far. And is only an option for white, western and largely middle class or greater women anyway. Feminism means recognising that women are people too and that fashion and the societal norms of today are not those of tomorrow.

Vaginal Intercourse - yep, can be problematic depending on circumstances, but needn't be always/

Bras - I haven't been forced to wear one, nor do I know anyone who has been forced to wear one. Straw argument

Make up - here's one example - maybe Bindel doesn't say as much as that women shouldn't wear make up, but the reasons she gives for why she thinks women wear make up show a very very narrow field of view. (And also totally ignores that there's plenty of makeup wearing men around)

Also I did not intend to discredit radical feminism. I repeat: I'm still only beginning to read into the whole thing. In general, it seems to me that a lot of the ideas which are used to build straw feminists for ridicule purposes are drawn from radical feminism.

Also, radical feminism (in my limited reading) covers a lot of things I simply cannot identify with, because I feel that they are too extreme. You're failure to recognise that these ideas are extreme, don't make them any more moderate.

"I am sitting on my hands to avoid typing something that would get me banished from this section for evermore." from sherlock above..

I am sooo with you.

WidowWadman, you've been posting here for over a year. I've definitely seen you about before. A long time before.

Right now, I can't deal with an argument.

But don't go discrediting radical feminism just because you don't agree with it. It took me a long discussion with several members of this community to get it. But don't expect us to explain it to those who discredit it.

Stars - Have you now? I started posting in here more regularly only in November 2011, and still very tentatively. There's a handful of older threads which I posted in, probably picked up via "last 15 minutes", but I was for a long time very wary of this section.

Of course since November gives you 3 months - for me that's a short time.

I don't really get what "extreme" means in this context.

You may not have been posting regularly, but you were definitely posting. Unless you wish to call me a liar, or crazy.

And Aye, I think WidowWadman is trying to say radical feminism = extreme feminism. Or, at least, that's what the posts say...

What do you actual mean by "discrediting"? And if you don't feel like explaining, how do you expect anyone to get it? This type of discussion (if you can even call it that) is a prime example of what I find deterring.

It's just aggressive putting down.

Northeast "I just want political, social and economic equality for women, all women everywhere."

That's pretty much the same as I want. Nothing extreme about that at all.

I've explained how you're discrediting radical feminism. you keep calling it "extremist".

THAT is discrediting every radical feminist that posts in this section, every radical feminist that campaigns for change. Every radical feminist who battles for women's rights on a day in, day out basis.

Stars - I can point to extreme feminists who advocate no male role in raising children - they should be banished elsewhere ( not sure where, tho'). I can point to feminists who 'tell women off' for wearing high heels ( nice shoes?) and wearing make up. I can do the same for feminists who accuse other women of letting the side down by enjoying PIV. Ditto, for having the nerve to suggest that being accused of rape doesn't always mean that the accused isn't automatically guilty. And to proffer this heritical postion makes one a 'rape apologist'.

All of these gifts have been offered by posters in the FS. So to suggest that we have to look into a weirdy, MRA-based land to find these views is naive. ime.

I don't wish to call you a liar, or anything. Also, please, what word can I use as opposite for "moderate" without offending you?

Sorry, I'm not a native speaker, so if I inadvertently have used an offensive word instead of one which means "at one end of a spectrum rather than in the middle", please accept my sincere apologies. I'd be grateful if you could point out a less offensive word. I have purposely not said "radical feminism" as I haven't looked too much in depth into what radical feminism entails. So I don't want to incorrectly call everything that would fall under the "radical" umbrella "extreme", if there are possibly also viewpoints in there which aren't.

""I just want political, social and economic equality for women, all women everywhere."

Yes. I think, perhaps, the difference is that some people think it has happened already because they have done OK, some people think it will magically happen, some people think that their choices are made outwith a vacuum, some think it's all gonna come good because we have a few women in board positions and once had a female PM, some think that we should agitate a bit (but not too much), some think that lobbying for a change in the law will do it and some say fuck this, let's start again.

Radical is not another end of the spectrum, FFS. Radical, and can we please, please, PLEASE drill this in, purely means root. So radical feminism is about getting to the root of women's oppression. Eg, the patriarchy. So our discussion may be a little more in depth than that of liberal feminists. But not more extreme.