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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

it's not Narnia, it's the Feminist Section!

205 replies

JaneMare · 13/02/2012 17:21

i thought i'd start a thread for those of us who don't normally post in here, so we can chat without derailing (any further Angry) the thread about strip clubs.

shall we stay then? Wink

OP posts:
BasilRathbone · 15/02/2012 11:42

This:

"Equalism doesn't make anyone ask questions - everyone knows they want to be equal. Feminism makes people sit up and notice women aren't already equal."

Yes. Quite so.

Equalism is just wishy washy, don't frighten the horses, we're all equal now bullshit. It ignores the lack of equality in society. It ignores that we're still not on a level playing field. It ignores the backlash. It ignores that every single right women have got, has had to be struggled and fought for and wrung out of the men in power and that those rights have come under constant attack and when they can't be attacked directly, an indirect attack comes. You wanted sexual equality? OK, here it is, only what it means, is ubiquitous hard-core porn with women being portrayed as merely fuck objects. You wanted equality, here it is, men who have beaten up women and children, get to have 50 50 custody of those children, becasue that's equality innit.

It's meaningless.

Panfriedstardust · 15/02/2012 11:42

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BasilRathbone · 15/02/2012 11:46

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JerichoStarQuilt · 15/02/2012 11:52

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Panfriedstardust · 15/02/2012 11:55

Basil - I dislike the term "extremists" or calling people it - so you are right, I should have referred to 'extreme' views (as I see them).
Evidence? - see above re sheer impracticality.
Axe to grind? My axes are prefectly grinded, ta.

JerichoStarQuilt · 15/02/2012 11:58

What do you see as middle-of-the-spectrum, mainstream feminist views, pan?

Panfriedstardust · 15/02/2012 11:59

Jericho, please reflect that I haven't posted quotations from anyone. More's the shame, but really must be off. Things to do, people to single out.Hmm

PattiMayor · 15/02/2012 12:01

That's a bit rich Pan, considering it was you who singled out individual posters Hmm

BasilRathbone · 15/02/2012 12:02

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JerichoStarQuilt · 15/02/2012 12:02

Oh, I assume that bit when you referred to things people had said ... that you were referrring to things people said. Like ... what's the word for it? Quotations?

My mistake.

AnyFucker · 15/02/2012 12:13

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StarsAndBoulevards · 15/02/2012 12:24

give me an hour or so...

blackcurrants · 15/02/2012 12:26

WidowWadman (love your name, btw, big Sterne fan here)

When you say

"Nobody has said that individual extreme opinions render the whole movement extreme. But that, if first contact with a movement is reading individual extreme opinions it can put off people from wanting to engage with it in the first place."

I know what you mean, I know how you feel. It feels like a completely reasonable to thing to say "well, all I'm saying is that when you read that, for example, penis-in-vagina sex is dangerous to women and women who love it must be brainwashed, you think "Okay, I know how to control for risk and I know what I like: this is just looneytunes. Oh! And now I'm being called names (funfem) because I'm not agreeing with that? Well, how on earth do they expect anyone NOT interested in Feminism to listen to them when someone who identifies as a feminist is put off by that kind of thinking?"

I know how you feel because I've been there. The answer, though, isn't 'be less radical! Attract more people!" it's "More feminism for all! More radical feminism for them as want it!''

One analogy that I could use (because I teach literature) is Shakespeare.
If someone said to me, "I've never seen any Shakespeare. Never read any. I've heard it's good and I think it's important and stuff, but I don't have any idea where to start. Can you show me some?" then I probably wouldn't take them immediately to a back-to-back showing of Henry IV parts 1 and 2, and then Henry V as a chaser. For a start that's over 12 hours of theatre, plus it's rather obscure history in parts, and Henry IV takes a bit to get going.
Instead, I would probably find out if they know the story of Romeo and Juliet, or maybe Macbeth, if they remember any of it from school, and then we might watch a Zefferelli's Romeo and Juliet, or the brilliant Patrick Stewart Macbeth (which is basically a horror story, and VERY creepy!) - or good live shows of the same plays. Live is always preferable.
I might invite that person to a reading group, or to come to some lectures with me, but I wouldn't sling them in the deep end, or tell them "Read these plays and then we'll talk" - until they had a feel for the iambic pentameter, until they understood the reasons that Shakespeare uses "Thou" at some points and "You" at others... and I would do that NOT BECAUSE the harder, more obscure stuff somehow deserves to be considered harder and more obscure - in fact, it's amazing and important and deserves to be widely known - but because we live in a time and a place where Shakespeare is not immediately accessible. The language can be off-putting. Some of the ideas feel alien. But familiarity, regular exposure, makes it seem completely transparent language, completely normal ideas.

Where am I going with this? If someone said "Oh, I thought I quite fancied seeing some Shakespeare but I went on the internet and read this article by some professor arguing about the technicalities of his language, or the nature of his staging, or the whys-and-wherefores of his religious imagery - and now I think knowing about Shakespeare is extreme and obscure and radical, and all people who know about Shakespeare are off-putting and how do you expect anyone to want to know about Shakespeare?
I'd say these things:
(1) If everyone was at least a bit familiar with Shakespeare, if there was more Shakespeare around and it was normal to think and talk about Shakespeare, then this 'extreme' Shakespeare wouldn't seem threatening to you. It would just seem like more detailed study of Shakespeare than, perhaps, you're after.

(2) But actually, we live in a culture that is fairly hostile to knowing a lot about Shakespeare. It's seen as snobby or pretentious, it's not easily available, people don't talk about it in pubs, people don't march up and down outside cinemas demanding more Shakespeare films or whatever. So even expressing an interest can be a bold, nerve-wracking thing to do. And then to feel like you're being pushed away by the strangeness of the language and ideas of the 'real' Shakespeare-knowers? Well that's the final straw! Screw this Shakespeare!

(3) the answer to this isn't "Screw this Shakespeare!" it's more Shakespeare. Normalising Shakespeare. Making Shakespeare the normal way of thinking about literature. Making liking Shakespeare something we look for in friends and partners. That way, the direction you take your interest in Shakespeare might go into Henrys 4 and 5, and it might not - but you're not threatened by those who stay up all night arguing about his potential Catholicism.

Radical Feminists can be off-putting because we live in a culture that is hostlie to even the teensyiest, tiniest expression of any kind of feminism. Far more so than the Late-80s and early 90s, when I became interested in it. There has been a wild backlash against the feminist gains of the 70s and 80s, an attempt to keep women subjugated. That's why young women preface their proto-feminist remarks with "I'm not a feminist BUT"

Being any kind of feminist is a BAD thing, at the moment. And "Radical" feminists, feminist who work hard to remove the patriarchal filters that obscure our perception of the world, feminist at the very root of the matter- they have gone past caring that being seen as a feminist is a bad thing. Saying that they should tone it down a bit or they'll put people off is just another way of agreeing that actually, feminism should only exist if the patriarchy says it can.
Given that feminism exists to liberate women from patriarchal oppression, actually feminism that agrees to exist because patriarchy says it can ... is no real kind of feminism at all.

Oh god this is huge. I hope some of it makes sense. I just wanted to engage with what you said because I remember thinking it myself for a while - if only they wouldn't put normal people off! then I worked out: they are not the problem. Our perception of what is 'normal' is the problem.

TunipTheVegemal · 15/02/2012 12:27

it's only impractical because the posts never existed in the first place.

PattiMayor · 15/02/2012 12:37

Love that post blackcurrants - and completely nails it IMO. I sometimes do feel I'm a bit feminism-lite. But I read, it makes me think and thinking is good. Sometimes it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable but that makes me think more about why that might be, rather than rejecting concepts out of hand (which is what I want to do because that feels more comfortable).

Widow - I'm not trying to speak for you so hope it doesn't come across that way. Just musing on my approach to more radical feminist theory.

blackcurrants · 15/02/2012 12:38

TBE wrote "There is nothing scary about feminism. There is lots that is scary about misogyny."

And that's the truth. Feminism doesn't kill 2 women a week from spousal abuse. Feminism doesn't tell young girls that to be complete they must find a man. Feminism doesn't tell women how to dress, what to feel, when to be ashamed and when to be quiet.

Feminism tells the truth about the world we live in.

That we have been so successfully persuaded that this is an 'extreme' and 'scary' experience, means that misogyny is really, really, really pervasive. And extremely dangerous.

blackcurrants · 15/02/2012 12:41

THANK YOU Patti (for getting through the bloody thing, for starters! Grin)

I find some of the stuff on the radfem hub threatening to my ideas, my actions, my cosy worldview. But I've been a feminist for a long time and I know that my ideas, actions and cosy worldview are steeped in patriarchal practices - they can't not be, it's a patriarchal world. So .. yes, some of it is hard thinking, but I view it as hard thinking which needs to be done. If, after hard thinking, I still don't get it/ agree with it all, then I have learned something awesome.

The knee-jerk desire to ignore or discredit threatening and revolutionary ideas - that desire is always within me. Always. But when I look at radical feminist and I look at the patriarchy, I know which side actually wants me to be a free person, and which side doesn't think I'm a person at all.

TunipTheVegemal · 15/02/2012 12:42

Fantastic posts Blackcurrants.

This bit:
'Feminism doesn't tell women how to dress, what to feel, when to be ashamed and when to be quiet.'
-exactly, and that is why when people go around making unsubstantiated claims that feminists have done those things we need to call to account the people making those claims.

StewieGriffinsMom · 15/02/2012 13:04

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lollygag · 15/02/2012 13:10

Yes,good post Blackcurrants.Feminism is indeed the new 'F' word.Being a feminist today is like being gay in the sixties.It wouldn't surprise me if TPTB made it illegal!

blackcurrants · 15/02/2012 13:18

I don't think that's a risk, lolly - it doesn't need to be illegal, it just needs to be something to be ashamed of. And that's been achieved.

But I'll say it loud: I'm feminist and I'm proud.

JerichoStarQuilt · 15/02/2012 13:22

Brilliant post blackcurrants.

StarsAndBoulevards · 15/02/2012 13:35

Lolly, not all of us celebrate it. In fact, some of us spent most of the day fighting for women's rights in one way or another...

WidowWadman You really don't like me, do you? Grin

Firstly, just because you can't see oppression, doesn't mean it's not there. I'm not saying you have to agree with the PIV can be problematic viewpoint. Hell, it took me a good few months to understand it.

I don't think I said heterosexuality was inherently problematic. But what is problematic is the fact that it's assumed the norm.

Anyyyyway. I don't think I wish to discuss this further with someone who is so opposed to discussing it whilst dismissing it.

I'm not opposed to women making any of these decisions. In fact, far from it. But just because I'm wearing make up, doesn't mean I can't discuss the Beauty Myth. (PS does someone want to tell Naomi Wolf she had it all wrong?)

Pan I've yet to see Dittany or Sakura make any resemblance to those comments you posted. I've seen trolls insist we hate men, I've seen people exaggerate radical feminism. I've seen people shut out radical feminism, just because they don't agree with it.

Also, please refrain from discrediting Dittany and Sakura. I'd say they're pretty representative of FWR.

And as for me having the wrong view of FWR... Just because it contrasts with yours doesn't mean it's wrong. Stop trying to silence me, please.

TBE and blackcurrants have made some excellent posts. Can I borrow a bit of your patience, please?

SinicalSanta · 15/02/2012 14:46

Just adding my voice to the chorus - excellent post blackcurrants

WidowWadman · 15/02/2012 14:50

"Anyyyyway. I don't think I wish to discuss this further with someone who is so opposed to discussing it whilst dismissing it."

What the actual fuck? How about actually trying to make an argument rather than just repeatedly shouting me down that I would "discredit" something, you don't even wish to try to explain to me. I can't see any discussion coming from you at all, only talk about silencing and discrediting. But I guess that's also a way of trying to make somebody shut up and go away. You could almost call it silencing...

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