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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Happy Patriarchymas!

384 replies

thunderboltsandlightning · 24/12/2011 21:48

I know, I know - but this is the feminist section and christmas is about celebrating the birth of the son of god, with women's spirituality and power completely written out of the story. It's the classic patriarchal mindfuck for women. Even Santa's a man, but who does most of the present-buying and wrapping?

Then there's the fact that christmas is all about women doing most of the work, with men enjoying the benefits.

Each year I find it a little more difficult to have to go through it all. Once you've seen what it's about, it gets harder to ignore the brainwashing.

Hope everybody has a happy peaceful time, whatever you are celebrating.

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Tortington · 27/12/2011 01:26

we - humankind are made in his image - bothmale and female

and i think i read a lot of the confusion is about genderised words there are not a lot of languages where you can refer to something without it being male or female

but i can't go and researcht his so maybe some theologist or something could wade in on that point

also god is spirit anyway

TheBrandyButterflyEffect · 27/12/2011 01:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

thunderboltsandlightning · 27/12/2011 01:28

Patriarchal religion was made and is made in the minds of misogynistic men's minds. It reflected what they did and what they wanted to do.

Men at that time raped young women and girls and got them pregnant and forced them into marriage. So that's what they got god to do, minus the marriage part. Of course they said Mary wanted it, but then rapists always say that about their victims.

To understand patriarchal religion you need to look at its symbols and myths and see what they are really representing. It's not good.

And yes, god is a man. God the father, remember?

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Tortington · 27/12/2011 01:29

Man and woman are both with one and the same dignity "in the image of God"

from the catechism

Tortington · 27/12/2011 01:31

god is spirit

he is genderless

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 01:35

In the quote you just used, God did not impregnate the Virgin Mary, the Holy Spirit did, and the Holy Spirit is not God but part of the Holy Trinity, of Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

God himself cannot be automatically considered to be male either.
"This does not mean however that the Church wishes to anthropomorphize God by projecting human maleness onto Him. The Church knows that God ?is neither man nor woman: He is God? and ?God?s parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood? (Catechism, no. 239). The Bible in various places uses feminine imagery to refer to the Holy Spirit ? imagery that goes a long way back in both Catholic and ancient Jewish tradition. There is much theology in the Jewish tradition with regard to the ?breath? of God or the ?wisdom? of God cast in feminine, maternal, or bridal terms. The great Shekinah glory cloud who led Israel through the wilderness and who surrounded Solomon?s Temple, was understood by the rabbis in feminine terms. Though God is usually referred to in masculine imagery, Isaiah 42:14 describes the Lord giving birth after much travail. This image may lie behind Jesus? saying in John 3:5 that we must be born of water and the Spirit. It is probably significant that Jesus uses ?born of the Spirit? and ?born of God? (John 1:13) rather than ?begotten of God,? which would reflect more paternal parentage. This does not take away from Isaiah?s specifically calling God ?Father? (Is. 63:16, 64:8) and Jesus echoing this dozens of times in the Gospels. The Holy Spirit inspired the scriptures and therefore respect for the Holy Spirit means respect for His choice of words and images to describe God in all their paradoxical tension.

The masculanising of God came from Jesus, prior to that, God can, in some Catholic circles, considered to have been Gender Neutral.

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 01:36

I think that if Christianity informs a festival that dominates our culture, a bit of analysis/pondering is fair enough.

That I agree with, but I am not sure insinuating God is a paedophilic rapist is the same as a bit of analysis/pondering.

thunderboltsandlightning · 27/12/2011 01:39

That's just another patriarchal mindfuck. "he is genderless"? Can't you see the total internal contradication in that statement. I bet your church never refers to god (not goddess) as she.

Women are just supposed to ignore all the gendering and pretend we're included too.

Christian fathers viewed women as inferior beings to the fully human men:

?Both nature and the law place the woman in a subordinate condition to the man? Irenaeus, Fragment no 32.

?It is the natural order among people that women serve their husbands and children their parents, because the justice of this lies in (the principle that) the lesser serves the greater . . . This is the natural justice that the weaker brain serve the stronger. This therefore is the evident justice in the relationships between slaves and their masters, that they who excel in reason, excel in power.? (Augustine, Questions on the Heptateuch, Book I, § 153.

?Nor can it be doubted, that it is more consonant with the order of nature that men should bear rule over women, than women over men. It is with this principle in view that the apostle says, "The head of the woman is the man;" and, "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands." So also the Apostle Peter writes: "Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord." Augustine, On Concupiscence, Book I, chap. 10.

?The Apostle wants women who are manifestly inferior, to be without fault, in order that the Church of God be pure? Ambrosiaster, On 1 Timothy 3,11.
?Who are there that teach such things apart from women? In very truth, women are a feeble race, untrustworthy and of mediocre intelligence. Once again we see that the Devil knows how to make women spew forth ridiculous teachings, as he has just succeeded in doing in the case of Quintilla, Maxima and Priscilla? Epiphanius, Panarion 79, §1.

Confirmation of the inferior status of women was often seen in the belief that only man, not woman, had been created in God's image:

?You (woman) destroyed so easily God's image, man.? Tertullian, De Cultu Feminarum, book 1, chap. 1.
?How, then, would God have failed to make any such concession to men more (than to women), whether on the ground of nearer intimacy, as the male being in "His own image," or on the ground of harder toil? But if nothing (has been thus conceded) to the male, much less to the female.? Tertullian, On the Veiling of Virgins, chap. 10.

? Women must cover their heads because they are not the image of God . . . How can anyone maintain that woman is the likeness of God when she is demonstrably subject to the dominion of man and has no kind of authority? For she can neither teach nor be a witness in a court nor exercise citizenship nor be a judge-then certainly not exercise dominion? Ambrosiaster, On 1 Corinthians 14, 34.

?So the soil, that is the womb, accepts the human race, and she nourishes what is her own after receiving it , and while nourishing this body, and while giving it a body, distinguishes it into various members?. Jerome, Letter to Pammachius.

?They shut themselves up alone with women and justify their sinful embraces by quoting the lines: ?The almighty father takes the earth to wife; pouring upon her fertilizing rain, that from her womb new harvest he may reap.? Jerome, Letter 133. To Ctesiphon, §3.

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thunderboltsandlightning · 27/12/2011 01:41

I'm not insinuating it. I'm saying it straight out. Which bit of what I said was unclear?

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Tortington · 27/12/2011 01:42

and god always creates life by talking or speaking not sex - there is not gender to god - its just that man wrote the bible so the pronouns are male lots of default pronouns are male - i think it is in english and ancient greek - your male unless proven otherwise

ofcourse in a book written by men, 0put together by men and edited by men so there are no female gospels left then theres going to be strong masculine bent to this GENDERLESS spirit

its like giving god a race - saying god is white - its a tricky road to go down is that. and is only to further your own ends.

He has no race and he has no need to procreate and therefore doesn't need a penis

cos He is spirit

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 01:45

we could simply trade google quotes all night, I am more than capable of finding numerous posts about how the gospels empower women, the difference is I have a basic understanding of the religion (which again I point out I dont practise) and some respect for the beliefs of others.

thunderboltsandlightning · 27/12/2011 01:48

Why do you keep calling him him if he's genderless? "He" is a gendered pronoun meaning male.

God doesn't create life, nature creates life, and on this planet the female generally does.

The male god creator of the human race is a patriarchal reversal of what actually happens. It's an erasure of woman. Your creatrix was a woman Custardo.

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thunderboltsandlightning · 27/12/2011 01:50

You don't respect my beliefs at all MJ. If you did you wouldn't be on this thread with your patriarchal propaganda.

Demanding respect for a religion that has created suffering and still creates suffering for so many women and girls, and has been the cause of murder and torture of so many women is ridiculous.

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TheBrandyButterflyEffect · 27/12/2011 01:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 01:57

I wasnt talking about your beliefs thunder I was referring to the religion you are so happily decimating.

And I will post on whatever thread I chose to post on, much the same as you feel free to do.

I happen to disagree with you referring to the Christian God as a paedophilic rapist, I find offensive, and so I have challenged it, God did not impregnante anyone.

Religions, most of them, not just Christianty, causes huge amounts of pain and suffering, to all genders.

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 01:59

TheBrandy, I am happy to stand corrected, as it is a long old time since I studied religion, but as I understand it, the 2 things that stand Catholicism apart from the other Christian Religions are Belief in the Virgin Birth and Transubstantiation. I thought only Catholics believed in either??

Tortington · 27/12/2011 02:01

there is no gender neutral pro-noun and in english the default is male - its the English language - thats why!

in the beginning god created - but then this isn't the argument - the argument is whether god raped the virgin mary with his god penis * even though the holy spirit is well...errrrr a spirit... then told everyone to keep calling her a virgin when he

The male god creator of the human race is a patriarchal reversal of what actually happens. It's an erasure of woman. Your creatrix was a woman Custardo.

this is not fact. this is an opinion. my god is neither male not female - that is my opinion. If your god is a woman - good for you

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 02:03

And yes, god is a man. God the father, remember?

God is 3, God the father, God the son, God the Holy Spirit.

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 02:05

and with that, its off to sleep for me.

Night All.

Abirdinthehand · 27/12/2011 02:27

Gulp - first time ever posting on the feminism board, please be kind to me...

I am a Christian. There are plenty of feminist Christian theologians, some of whom refer to god as she. Unfortunately we don't have a genre neutral pronoun, otherwise it would be the most appropriate.

There is plenty of church history which, any reasonable Christian would accept, is deeply biased against women (witch burning, the catholic prohibition against female priests - you know the score!). The bible was written by men, and that also comes across loud and clear. But as a Christian, I understand I am receiving this faith through 2000 years and more of complex history, and yet through the nonsense I do see some remarkable things. I see a 1st century male jew who spoke to Samaritan women, healed women who were bleeding even though just touching them made him 'unclean' and could get him stoned, raised women from the dead, and bothered to teach women scripture, a deeply transgressive act. I see him choose to be born by a human mother, and first appear after he comes back to life to a woman - and ask her to be the bearer of the news to the other disciples. I see him befriend prostitutes (I'm not talking about Mary magdalene - it's not clear in the gospels if she was a prostitute - but there are lots of other prostitutes who clearly are, iykwim). I see him defend a woman who was about to be stoned for adulatory and save her life. I see him praise a widow who gives what she has, over a man who gives what she can spare.

Jesus was a feminist. So when I look at my faith, I approach it wit the question, "how do I receive a tradition that is biased against me?" rather than, "how do I approach a god who is biased against me?"

messyisthenewtidy · 27/12/2011 07:26

That was a nice post ABird. I agree that Jesus did some v pro woman things and as an atheist who sees Jesus as a great figure like Gandhi or Mandela I do find him inspiring but it is near impossible to see God as anything other than male, especially since, in my atheist opinion he was made in the image of man rather than the other way round.

Whilst the essence of Xtianity may be love I find it very hard to grasp. I mean the stuff Augustine and other early church founders spouted was so viscious that it makes me sick. It was very offputting as a child to be given excuse after excuse for God's ungodlike behaviour and I have met men who have told me that women shouldn't be priests because noone would listen to them.

I do think if the church were interested in doing the right thing they need to acknowledge the terrible wrong that has been done to women in the name of religion. But instead they brush it under the carpet and make excuse after excuse without recognising the psychological damage that has been passed down through the centuries. I dont think damage is too strong a word when you consider the nastiness of the creation myth, the exclusion from involvement, the witch hunts and other stereotypes thoat have coloured our collective psyche.

BTW although this thread has gotten a bit risque with all its talk of rape it has been pretty interesting. Insomuch as we are influenced strongly by Xtian beliefs it cant do any harm to analyse them.

thunderboltsandlightning · 27/12/2011 11:25

Jesus was not a feminist. He had zero to say about women's rights. He had nothing to say about male violence against women including sexual violence. He had nothing to say about the inequality that women experience (and no being equal in god's eyes doesn't count, inequality exists in concrete reality). Jesus doesn't deserve credit for something women created and women fought for. It's just offensive to be making claims like that about him.

I think what's confusing people here is that on this thread christianity is being treated as a set of myths and symbols, myths and symbols that arose from previous myths and also the culture of the time and reflected the interests of those men creating it. There are plenty of places where religion is given its undue veneration and respect but this thread is in part about examining it (well christianity) critically. Patriarchal religions are massive institutions with huge amounts of money and followers who get to preach their message week in week out, they have huge influence - many of them are institutionalised and state religions. If they can't cope with criticism in one tiny corner of the internet, well that word "fascist" springs to mind.

PS: Ghandi used to sleep with young women (older teenagers) in his bed, partially clothed, to prove that he could resist temptation. It was supposed to be an honour for the young women. He was a creep. He also nicked his ideas on resistance from the suffragetttes, who don't get held up as great holy figures the way jesus, mandela or ghandi do. But then suffragettes aren't men and through religion we're taught that only men are supposed to receive that level of adulation.

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MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 12:24

Patriarchal religions are massive institutions with huge amounts of money and followers who get to preach their message week in week out, they have huge influence

Now that I agree with and it's basically why I no longer practise.

lollygag · 27/12/2011 13:32

It's not going to matter soon anyway.When the Western Banking and Economic system collapses shortly there will be a massive breakdown in 'Society'. When society ceases to exist so does Law and Order.It will essentially be the law of the jungle.
By the way,I'm calling it a win for thunderbolts in the cutting and pasting from Wikipaedia stakes.

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 14:35

I wasn't using wikipedia :) and I got bored of cutting and pasting when I couldn't be arsed to read or understand it although it is quite an imterwsting debate.