Happy Patriarchymas!

[thunderboltsandlightning]

I know, I know - but this is the feminist section and christmas is about celebrating the birth of the son of god, with women's spirituality and power completely written out of the story. It's the classic patriarchal mindfuck for women. Even Santa's a man, but who does most of the present-buying and wrapping?

Then there's the fact that christmas is all about women doing most of the work, with men enjoying the benefits.

Each year I find it a little more difficult to have to go through it all. Once you've seen what it's about, it gets harder to ignore the brainwashing.

Hope everybody has a happy peaceful time, whatever you are celebrating.

It's like the Marxist argument that the first step towards communism is for the working classes to see the inequality that they are in.

Telling people that they are in a situation because they have allowed it is victim blaming.

Some people may see the inequality, but actually consciously agree to go along with it. Many, many, others don't though, or only vaguely feel upset/depressed because of it, without really being able to articulate why. These people probably come across as the whingers & moaners, who love to be a victim. Some of them may be that kind of person, or even someone who doesn't see the work that their partner does, and takes them for granted.

But leaving aside those kinds of people (who are probably on a personality disorder spectrum, and therefore in a minority) there are still huge numbers of people - mainly women - who are in an abusive/oppressive/taking advantage relationship who don't quite get why, and still feel pressured to do all the wife work, resent it & then feel guilty for resenting it. That kind of cognitive dissonance is damaging to the individuals and those around them.

So, until there is a more universal recognition of the problem, threads like this need to exist.

Of course, once people see the problem, then some kind of action is needed. Some people have the power to change that. It could be as simple as talking to their family and sharing out the wifework equally. Others may find that they have a huge struggle to change anything. And when you risk losing your marriage, home & upsetting your kids, then it becomes a very difficult situation indeed.

I"m not PMing you anything architien. You made a statement that what was done to Mary in the bible was "empowering". You've failed to provide justification for that statement.

If we're talking about "tone", yours is super-condescending.

Also the idea that context makes men's rapes of 12 year old girls OK is appalling. You're right there was a context, it was a patriarchal society that used god and religion as its justification for abuse of women and girls. Christianity led to 2 further millennia of female oppression. Feminism plans to bring that reign of misogyny to an end.

I thought I had read some extreme views in my time, but the idea that Christmas is based on God Raping Mary - words fail me.

Re Marys age - given life expectancy at that time, in order to have children and be around to raise them, rather the leave then motherless and or fatherless at a young age, I would imagine early marriage was a necessity for both sexes.

I'm a lapsed Catholic but I'm sure such extreme views are offensive to anyone of that faith and any other similar religion.

Mary was visited by the Angel Gabriel and if you want to follow the bible - conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit - I'm not sure where the idea she was raped came from.

I justified why it was empowering already you are just not seeing it. It's ok to disagree in my opinion. I am talking to you as an equal, considering your point of view and was attempting to have a conversation because your first post seemed very angry. You seem to be stuck. Nowhere did I say that "raping 12 year olds was OK". You appear to be spoiling for a fight misquoting and using shocking statements, not really engaging in conversation.

My best wishes to you at Christmas/ winter festivities (whichever is more suitable for you) all the same.

MJ Yes it is a tad offensive isn't it especially to those who have ACTUALLY been raped :(

as well as those who have just celebrated their religious festival as a family.

Think a few people have been persuaded by my arguments here lollygag. So not preaching to the converted in the slightest.

Architien, please point out where you explained how Mary was empowered by being a 12 year old girl forcibly impregnated by a male god, I must have missed that post.

My posts haven't been angry, I'm not sure where you're getting that. You keep talking about "tone" rather than engaging with the actual arguments, that's what is coming across as condescending.

Truth is we will never know what happened with Mary seeing as it's highly improbable that she was impregnated by the big G. My guess is that Joseph was the actual dad and that's why he agreed to marry her.

Whichever way you look at it the Nativity story definitely fails the Bechdel test!

Actually Architien, I've been raped and I don't find Thunderbolt's arguments offensive.

Just so you know.

It always really pisses me off when people decide that women who have been raped must feel a certain way about certain things btw.

Completely off subject, but one of the reasons we have such lousy attitudes to and conviction rates for rape, is because of the things we demand that rape victims say, think and feel and if they don't, we decide that they're not "real" rape victims. Very dangerous for women and needs to be called on when it happens. Sorry Architien I'm sure you don't mean any harm by it, but it's not any of our place to say what is (or should be) offensive or not to rape victims.

I have been a victim of date rape

I don't take offence at feminist analysis of religion

tbh, it doesn't matter whether it was rape, or holy or whatever. It romaticises the concept of young innocent girl, there to provide for the big powerful man & let him be ruler.

So many stories are based on the idea of the young, pure innocent girl being 'rescued' or falling in love with the big strong guy. She looks up at him with her adoring eyes, and then gives him babies to continue his patriarchal reign through the generations.

Which then totally justifies men going after younger women, and expecting them to hero worship them.

Prob why older women aren't seen as so sexy - they just don't fall for the bullshit so easily.

I'm also a rape victim. The "this offends rape victims" claim gets old pretty quickly.

The analysis of Mary's rape by god is common knowledge in feminist circles and in feminist theology. It's not a new idea or limited to me saying it on this thread. I realise it's shocking, but something being shocking should stop feminists saying it. The sexual politics in the creator coming along and telling Mary that she's going to bear his child, are shocking. Do we think she could have said no? What would have god said if she had? What would have been the consequences? Remember this was the god of the old testament - Mary and Joseph were Jewish.

Patriarchal myth bolsters the patriarchy in a myriad of ways. I probably need to talk about this more fully. Will try tomorrow.

Oh yeah, Zeus the rapist (amongst others). It's true that that's the context. It didn't spring out of nothing.

Mary was the rape victim who "consented".

but god wasn't a man and didn't have a penis and if he did then the virgin mary woudnt be a virgin

Our father who art in heaven.

God made man in his own image (including a penis I presume).

The thing about god impregnating Mary but her still remaining a virgin is just another of those patriarchal double-think mind-fucks. Like BrandyButterfly says, the context was the patriarchal rape of the goddess(es) which has old roots and was repeated in the nativity story.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Man is the generic term for the species, and does not refer to the fact god made only "men with penises".

Purely from a threoretical point of view, Mary wasnt impregnated (ie with sperm), at least not in the rabidly Catholic (put me off religion for life) schools I went to.

Greek and Roman Mythology do talk about Gods ravishing women, but the basis of Christianity is that Mary was pure and devout, that this is something she wanted to do.

If I remember correctly, Islam also concurs with the virgin birth (but I cant remember where I read that because in school other religions didnt exist).

I dont believe myself, but neither do I think attacking one of the underlying principles of Christianity, at the time of one of their biggest celebrations, is particularily appropriate.

there was not penetration - not in my faith

in my faith god doesn't have a dick

and mary was a virgin

---

there was not sex

you presume God has a dick had sex with a woman with a penis. the all knowing creator who knows and thinks everything, needs to go for a piss - you're blowing my mind - omg - to piss be must need to eat and drink.....holy shit .....godpenetrated mary the virgin ....for teh rape bit....but then there is just this little matter of the eternal virgin thing...hmmmm right then lets call this double speak bollocks and just say that god raped a woman with a dick and its well known in feminist theory

ok then

Well looking at Wikipedia, and depending on how much you think you can trust them on chrsitian dogma, the concept of the virgin birth (using the same idea of virginity as we do) has been around since the second century:

"The virgin birth of Jesus is a tenet of Christianity and Islam which holds that Mary miraculously conceived Jesus while remaining a virgin. The term "virgin birth" is commonly used, rather than "virgin conception", due to the tradition that Joseph "knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son".[1] This doctrine was a universally held belief in the Christian church by the 2nd century,[2] and is upheld by Roman Catholicism, the Church of the East, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Protestantism and Anglicanism. It is included in the two most widely used Christian creeds, which state that Jesus "was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary" (the Nicene Creed)[3] and was "born of the Virgin Mary" (Apostles' Creed),[4] and was not seriously challenged, except by some minor sects, before the Enlightenment theology of the 18th century.[2]
The canonical gospels of Matthew (Matthew 1:18)[1:18] and Luke[1:26-35] say that Mary was a virgin and that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. These gospels, later tradition and current doctrine present Jesus' conception as a miracle involving no natural father, no sexual intercourse, and no male seed in any form, but instead brought about by the Holy Spirit.[5][6][7][8] In Roman Catholic and Eastern and Oriental Orthodox usage, the term "virgin birth" means not only that Mary was a virgin when she conceived and gave birth, but also that she remained a virgin throughout her life, a belief attested since the 2nd century.[9] (See Perpetual virginity of Mary).
The general Christian doctrine of the virgin birth of Jesus (i.e., Mary's virginal conception of Jesus) is not to be confused with the Roman Catholic doctrine of her Immaculate Conception, which concerns instead her mother's conception of Mary. This is thought to have occurred in the normal way, not miraculously. What the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception holds is that, when Mary herself was conceived, she came into existence without the "stain" (Latin, macula) of original sin.[10]
Mary's virginity at the conception of Jesus is also a tenet of Islam.[11][12] Muslims refer to Jesus with the matronymic Jesus son of Mary (Isa bin Maryam), a term repeatedly used in the Qur'an.[13]"

God impregnated her and she never had intercourse.