Happy Patriarchymas!

[thunderboltsandlightning]

I know, I know - but this is the feminist section and christmas is about celebrating the birth of the son of god, with women's spirituality and power completely written out of the story. It's the classic patriarchal mindfuck for women. Even Santa's a man, but who does most of the present-buying and wrapping?

Then there's the fact that christmas is all about women doing most of the work, with men enjoying the benefits.

Each year I find it a little more difficult to have to go through it all. Once you've seen what it's about, it gets harder to ignore the brainwashing.

Hope everybody has a happy peaceful time, whatever you are celebrating.

Well I never. A thread in feminism section doing nothing but moan and bloody rant. Several days of doing nothing but whine and moan about christmas. Anything but wish people well and to have a good time.

Yes there is an imbalance in many households but really all I have really seen here is a load of vitriol and bad feeling. If you dont want to do it then fucking dont! No one is making you celebrate anything but for fucks sake leave other people to enjoy things.

Seasons greetings to you too hillsnspills. Hope you had a good one.

Well I never, a poster in a feminist thread telling the ladies how to post.

Happy Christmas to you, Hills.

I did wish people well and hope they enjoyed themselves.

A lot of women didn't though unfortunately, and had to work very hard instead.

Wow. Well I guess that when women talk too much instead of smiling and nodding, then it can sound a bit shrill and moaney.

More power to your elbow Chandon. I admire your restraint - it would drive me to drink (well, more drink) to see your DH's not very subtle avoidance of family activity and work in the kitchen etc. Good luck with the PLAN.

Ho hum. Another poster who hasn't actually read the thread of if she has, hasn't understood it.

This thread hasn't been moaning about christmas.

It's discussing some of its aspects from a feminist perspective. Sorry you can't tell the difference Hills. I had a lovely christmas. I expect most of the feminists round here did, becasue we're not doing unncessary wifework we don't want to be doing.

HTH.

Messy, I can totally understand what you mean about acknowledging the damage done by the church through history - I think it is a fair wrd, and I am part of the church! It has a less than perfect history, or course, regarding women and also regarding many other equality / justice issues, like slavery for instance. But I would point out that the church is not homogenous - just like feminism! I wqas bought up in a church where women could not be leaders. This took me a long time to get over, and did damage me I think. But just because some churches preach this, it does not mean all do. I'm sure there are feminists you fundamentally dasagree with?

Secondly, I would say that because I am a christian, I see God as real, jesus as a hisorical figure who was also, really and actually, God. He is not a myth or symbol to me, he is my friend. And like many great figures, he is appropriated by anyone and everyone to argue for the cause. I say, from knowing him through my faith, that Jesus was a feminist. He challenged the deeply anti-woman aspects of his culture in very shocking ways, and knowing him has given me the courage to speak out against other kinds of inequality that perhps I would not have been so concious of if it was not for my faith. Thunder says, from looking at him through the myths and symbols that have grown up around him, that he is not a feminist. I would agree. Many many church pracitces and doctrines are deeply patriarchal. But I would argue that most of these doctrines are not biblical and not from Jesus. Like any beautiful, good and powerful thing, the teaching of Jesus can be taken by powerful groups (men? the Romans? Heterosexual people? the rich?Etc etc) and used to support their positions.

Thunder it is not fair to say christians cannot take critisism. Some can't some can. We're a mixed bag, just like any other group of people.

When I was struggling with some of these issues because of my church bckground, I found this book fascinating and very useful. I think anyone interested in a feminist Christian perspective would find it really good - although I recognize that's not everyone on this thread!

God the father, god the son and god the holy spirit.

Only 2/3 male then?

abird bought thanks.

I think most theologians agree God as a whole is gender neutral Elfenor. here is a lot of imagery in the bible of god crying out in birth pains, of her brooding over her children like a mother hen with her chicks - Some theologians use the terms 'God the creator' instead. The bible was written mainly by men in a patriarcha society so the words they chose reflected their own experience, and obviously used the term Father. Jesus did too, but again that could be because it was literally true for him?

Personally I do not feel I have a relationship with a male-only God. I have a relationship with a God who created all of humanity in their own image.

Misogynistic theologians who enjoy the patriarchal mind-fuck agree that god is gender neutral because that's what suits patriarchy at the moment. It's good that you're appealing to male authority though Abird, men will generally always back up the status quo and stifle feminist criticism and analysis.

The thing is, he's called "he", he's a god not a goddess. It's quite clear he's a man, and that man made god in his image. You don't even have to be a theologian to spot it.

The problem is for women when they have to do these mental gymnastics to believe that patriarchal religion is about them and for them, when it patently isn't. It's about aggrandising and worshipping men.

I think you can have the relationship you want with a deity but the organisation of the church has a whole, speaks ab out that deity as male.

It' a bit like the debate people always have about wehther "man" means human being. You can tie yourself in knots pretending that when someoen refers to a man and "he" "him" etc., they mean he or she, man or woman, but I prefer to be guided by what things mean in English and stop denying that the reason that the male pronoun was always used in English, was not because the male pronoun referred to men and woman together, but because women were being excluded from the discourse. They weren't even considered full human beings, so it was perfectly reasonable to talk about humanity as being male.

Indeed Elfenor. Words mean something. Men know that which is why "he" and "god" get bandied around. It seems like it's only women invested in denying it.

I think that there's a difference between whether someone believes in a godly being, and discussing how patriarchal society has interpreted and used that belief.

I don't think you can tell someone that they believe in a male only god when they believe in a male and female god. The holy spirit was female in many of the Hebrew texts so although there is an image if god the father there is also a female image

That doesn't really make any difference to how the Christian church has used the belief in a god to favor men, wealthy, white etc etc of society.

The analysis that I've been promising and have failed at so far, is that as Mary Daly says that these patriarchal religious festivals are designed to make men feel good about themselves and women feel very bad about themselves.

It's not just that women do most of the work, although that has an obvious tangible effect on women, it's the whole festival that revolves around worshipping a male god and his son and that women are expected to unquestioningly join in this worship. Even if you are an atheist/agnostic you're still celebrating christmas, you're still going to be surrounded by the whole culture telling you this is about god coming down to earth in male form and how his son is king of us all. The reversal involved in getting a mother to bow down to worship her son, as Mary did to jesus, is astounding.

As well as that there are all the mythical subtexts some already mentioned in this thread, like the rape of Mary (the rape of the goddess), the woman as incubator, the backslapping boys club (the three kings, the shepherds coming to worship the baby) - in other words the patriarchy coming together in an orgy of women erasure, including the erasure of female divinity.

At the same time as women are feeling the pain of being written out of the religious, cultural and historical picture, men can feel good that one of them is god, is there to be worshipped. Because if god is man, then man is god. That's what the story is about.

So any women feeling a bit rubbish about christmas, or not as enthusiastic as they might expect to be, might think of taking a look at these religious traditions and beliefs and what they actually mean for women. This holiday works against us.

Ahh, off to the rest of mumsnet! Find the feminist boards a bit too... aggressive. "Enjoy the patriarchal mindfuck"? "Appealing to male authority"? Gosh, this board s a bit scary for me!

Elfenor, I have not denied the church through history has been patriarchal and biased. That is what feminist theology is: re-examining the tradition we have recieved to understand how gender and faith fit together considering our history. And reclaiming and reexamining the language of our faith is part of this. These criticisms are not new to Christianity, and there are many many theologians (of both genders!) arguing about it all. Christian feminism has become quite a mainstream area of study, along with the resurgence of liberation theology (which has similar themes but focuses on economic inequality). So yes, there are parts of the church who insist still that only men can preach, that God is entirly and exclusively male... and there are parts that don't. And the debate is there, and growing.

Abirdinthehand wrote - "I wqas bought up in a church where women could not be leaders."

Are there any religions in which women are allowed to be leaders?

(I'm thinking CEO level, not middle management.)

I'm not telling anybody what they believe. I'm saying that christian mythology along with judaism and islam are monotheistic patriarchal religions worshipping the same male god.

This is not controversial.

It depends if you're a liberal or a radical Abird. You obviously think that patriarchal religion with its history of women-destruction and woman-erasure is worth reforming, as a radical I say, let's get rid.

Patriarchal mindfuck is a technical term. :) I'm quoting Mary Daly who created the field of Feminist theology. She was a Thomist scholar.

I've got to say I'm wondering what people who saw the title Happy Patriarchymas thought they'd be getting when they clicked on this thread.

Patriarchal religion is one of the pillars of male supremacy. It has caused, and still does cause, enormous harm to women and girls.

I totally agree Elf and Thunder on the big male pronoun cover up. It's so frustrating when we are patted on the head with the "but it's the generic 'he'". If you look closer at what people are saying when they say this they are usually talking about male specific things.
Also in the past when they used the He pronoun they would have openly admitted that they were not talking about women, eg the US constitution use of 'man' blatantly excluded women yet now we are expected to believe that this has all changed. I must have missed that particular memo!

ABird thank you for the book recommendation. I will most definitely buy it.

"He" is the default/de facto neuter pronoun in English.

Who do you think decided that vesuvia? It wasn't women.

It's very striking in the nativity story that all the men get to do things, where Mary just submits. She's told she's with child by the Holy Spirit, Joseph drags her to Bethlehem, she gives birth unattended in a stable, then lots of random kings and shepherds turn up, then she presents the baby to the temple in accordance with Jewish tradition to be circumcised admired by more men, then God tells Joseph to take her and the baby home via Egypt.

At no point in the entire gospels, as far as I can remember, does Mary ever get a chance to make a decision or take action on her own account. Her virtue, in the eyes of the church, lies in being an adoring doormat.